Toronto officer charged with second-degree murder

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Bitterman
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Re: Toronto officer charged with second-degree murder

Postby Bitterman » Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:14 pm

Shawshank wrote:
Bitterman wrote:Several years ago an acquaintance of mine shot a guy on a TTC bus.
Guy had a hammer...

I don't recall there being this much fuss. Maybe my memory fails...


Did he die? What race was he?


Yes... Shot dead.
Guys name was Yu.
Happened about 15 years ago... Almost the same situation as this recent incident... 'Cept no dick holding.

There was an inquest but... I don't recall the recommendations.
Admit nothing.
Deny everything.
Make counter accusations...

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To a T
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Re: Toronto officer charged with second-degree murder

Postby To a T » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:00 pm

:ponder:
Last edited by To a T on Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Punisher-One
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Re: Toronto officer charged with second-degree murder

Postby Punisher-One » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:36 am

Two teenagers were shot to death by gang-bangers in Toronto last night....where are the protests and public/twitter outrage for that??

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Whitebrown
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Re: Toronto officer charged with second-degree murder

Postby Whitebrown » Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:32 pm

Punisher-One wrote:Two teenagers were shot to death by gang-bangers in Toronto last night....where are the protests and public/twitter outrage for that??


CBC also closed the comments section. Can't have the public speaking ill of gangsters.

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Re: Toronto officer charged with second-degree murder

Postby 48highlander » Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:07 pm

Respond Wayne wrote:I watched the video yesterday, both of them actually...

I can totally understand the first 3 shots, it appeared as if he was about to exit the Streetcar... What confuses me are the shots fired after he was already down on the floor of the Streetcar... :ponder:

But yes, the bottom line, if you have a knife and the Police ask you to drop it, it might be a good idea!


Short of joining and under going all the use of force training, read "On Combat" by Lt. Col (Ret'd) Dave Grossman, it goes into the nitty gritty of things like auditory exclusion, tunnel vision etc.

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Re: Toronto officer charged with second-degree murder

Postby Punisher-One » Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:21 pm

48highlander wrote:Short of joining and under going all the use of force training, read "On Combat" by Lt. Col (Ret'd) Dave Grossman, it goes into the nitty gritty of things like auditory exclusion, tunnel vision etc.


No cowardly liberal or sign-waving hipster would ever read such a novel.

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Re: Toronto officer charged with second-degree murder

Postby gotchya » Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:21 am

48highlander wrote:it goes into the nitty gritty of things like auditory exclusion, tunnel vision etc.

Precisely, and what most won't understand.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."-Burke, Edmund
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Re: Toronto officer charged with second-degree murder

Postby MC07 » Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:58 pm

Shawshank wrote:
Respond Wayne wrote:I watched the video yesterday, both of them actually...

I can totally understand the first 3 shots, it appeared as if he was about to exit the Streetcar... What confuses me are the shots fired after he was already down on the floor of the Streetcar... :ponder:

But yes, the bottom line, if you have a knife and the Police ask you to drop it, it might be a good idea!


This is something I wondered. My understand though, there is no video from on the bus, or has not been released?


There is on board surveillance camera video, they've said it won't be released.

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Re: Toronto officer charged with second-degree murder

Postby 48highlander » Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:09 pm

MC07 wrote:
Shawshank wrote:
Respond Wayne wrote:I watched the video yesterday, both of them actually...

I can totally understand the first 3 shots, it appeared as if he was about to exit the Streetcar... What confuses me are the shots fired after he was already down on the floor of the Streetcar... :ponder:

But yes, the bottom line, if you have a knife and the Police ask you to drop it, it might be a good idea!


This is something I wondered. My understand though, there is no video from on the bus, or has not been released?


There is on board surveillance camera video, they've said it won't be released.


Not until after the trial now anyways.

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Re: Toronto officer charged with second-degree murder

Postby GoodWitness » Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:04 pm

Bitterman wrote:Yes... Shot dead.
Guys name was Yu.
Happened about 15 years ago... Almost the same situation as this recent incident... 'Cept no dick holding.

There was an inquest but... I don't recall the recommendations.

I didn't remember the details, so I looked it up.
Agitated and disturbed man on an empty bus, three officers enter the bus. After the officers "inundate" him with questions and commands (words from the testimony of one of the officers at the coroner's inquest) Yu removes a shiny object from his jacket and holds it close to his chest. One officer stumbles backwards, and one who has now moved off the bus fires 6 shots, three of which strike Yu in the head and neck.

So yes there are similarities, but also important differences in terms of the proximity to the officers. Here's recommendation 12 from the inquest, 16 years ago:
A. Every opportunity should be taken to convert an unplanned operation into a planned operation.

B. Unless impractical to do so, a ‘cordon and containment’ approach should be adopted.

C. That the aim of crisis resolution should be de-escalation and the resolution of situations without physical force.

D. That the ‘first contact’ and ‘time talk and tactics’ approach should be used by police whenever possible and that ‘active listening’ be stressed as a skill that officers must develop.

E. The fear and apprehension experienced by officers as a result of previous experiences, stereotyping or lack of knowledge, whether about mental illness, race, culture or other factors.

F. The fear and apprehension which persons involved with the police may feel as a result of previous experiences, stereotyping or lack of knowledge, particularly due to mental illness, racial or cultural background.

G. That police officers, whenever possible, should maintain a sufficient reactionary gap to give them the time to disengage, tactically reposition themselves and or react in such a way which prevents a situation from escalating from the verbal to the violent.

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Re: Toronto officer charged with second-degree murder

Postby dira necessitas » Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:24 pm

Ok... In the Yatim case the street car was empty except for Yatim...maybe...but was everyone sure of that at the time? Was a victim cowering behind a seat? We're they certain they could disengage and cordon to the point of not being able to react to help someone hiding on the street car?

Police always opt for no violence, but can't back so far up as to put public at risk. The aim is always to de-escalate at first.

Inquests that make recommendations that are already well practised procedures are worthless.
I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but let's take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself.

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Re: Toronto officer charged with second-degree murder

Postby GoodWitness » Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:49 pm

I don't have a horse in this race, and all I can comment on is the poor-quality video that I know we've all seen, including the version where the sound from the cell phone video is edited into the surveillance camera video. From that version, it appears that what got him shot was a step towards the door of the streetcar. From that vantage point you can't see any movement after the first three shots or during the six seconds up to the second series of shots, just toes up and legs toward the door. I'm sure the video from inside the streetcar provides a lot more information on how things evolved.

From the testimony in the Yu incident, it seemed like things evolved quickly in much closer proximity to the officers, with one stumbling backwards and probably ending up in a compromised position - and hence the decision to shoot.

Obviously no one goes to work hoping they'll find themselves in a situation to take someone's life, any officer who ends up in this type of situation has my sympathy.

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Re: Toronto officer charged with second-degree murder

Postby Shawshank » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:03 am

dira necessitas wrote:Ok... In the Yatim case the street car was empty except for Yatim...maybe...but was everyone sure of that at the time? Was a victim cowering behind a seat? We're they certain they could disengage and cordon to the point of not being able to react to help someone hiding on the street car?

Police always opt for no violence, but can't back so far up as to put public at risk. The aim is always to de-escalate at first.

Inquests that make recommendations that are already well practised procedures are worthless.


There is a quote from the movie SWAT that makes a lot of sense, regardless of what you may think if the movie

"We have 4 seconds to make a decision. They have four months to analyze it."

We, the public have the luxury of sitting back, watching a video and having more facts than the officer had at the time.
K division.

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Re: Toronto officer charged with second-degree murder

Postby meathead1 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:26 am

Real time decisions are never perfect.
When things get bad, I take comfort in knowing they could always be worse.
When things get worse, I take comfort in knowing they can only get better.


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