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General Law Enforcement discussion which does not fit into other channels. Post your thoughts and feelings about anything you want (LE related), or just vent those fumes about whatever is on your chest.
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Bald Man
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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Bald Man » Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:16 am

fox wrote:Reading these negitive comments about policing in Toronto makes me wonder if I should even apply there.

:ponder:


It's the same every where. When the city wants to cut, they always look at the police for cuts. I have a great idea, why doesn't the city look to the fire dept and paramedics for cuts? God knows hose monkeys don't work that hard while they sit and wait (and get paid the same) for a fire call that are far and few between.

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Z# » Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:07 am

OPPAux wrote:
Bald Man wrote:
fox wrote:Reading these negitive comments about policing in Toronto makes me wonder if I should even apply there.

:ponder:


It's the same every where. When the city wants to cut, they always look at the police for cuts. I have a great idea, why doesn't the city look to the fire dept and paramedics for cuts? God knows hose monkeys don't work that hard while they sit and wait (and get paid the same) for a fire call that are far and few between.


That'd be like arguing against motherhood..... :P


:rolllaugh: But so very true. The FD here in Winnipeg gets paid a significant amount more than the paramedics and are on par with police, but they do less than half the work. A few of our EMS guys and gals weren't even getting lunch breaks for a while, while the fire guys are clearing accident scenes (when the road still has broken vehicles on it) because they're missing their beloved lunch. Most of the calls the FD goes on are medical calls anyway, to which the staff are only marginally qualified to deal with. Should there be cuts to the FD? For sure. Will the IAFF ever concede to such a "ridiculous" idea? Never. I think cities look to the police dept. for cuts because they're the largest department. Thing is, you have to look at size vs. utilization rate. I guarantee nearly every cop works hard every day. Same with EMS (here anyway.) The fire dept.... they eat a lot every day, they sleep a lot every day, but for the most part work their utilization rate is peanuts.
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Z#
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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Z# » Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:46 am

...but it's so much cooler to shop at Longos!
"If you're going to tell someone the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you."
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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby FordAve » Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:10 pm

For all the forum members, who feel that auxiliares should not be used to assist with policing, you may want to read this. I think that auxiliaries should be better utilized, but this crazy.

Fred Attewill and agencies
Monday August 13, 2007
Guardian Unlimited


The body representing rank-and-file police officers has described the hiring of two 16-year-old community support officers as a "nonsense" that could endanger lives.
Alan Gordon, the vice chairman of the Police Federation, said the "children" would be exposed to "inordinate risks" which they were ill-equipped to deal with because of their age.

He was speaking as Thames Valley police defended its decision to recruit the school leavers, claiming they would be able to interact with other young people.

A spokesman for the force said: "If you are good enough you are old enough."

However, Mr Gordon said Police Federation members were "not happy" about the move.

"These children are going to be put in a uniform the public believe to be of a police officer and be expected to take on responsibilities on the streets," he said.

"Police officers can't protect them from the unpredictability of policing. To expect 16-year-olds to have the knowledge of life, maturity and judgment to tackle incidents is incredulous.

"And what about the police officers who have to work with these people? We already have concerns when officers are in a conflict situation working with PCSOs [police community support officers].

"Officers are already saying to us they have to keep an eye on the PCSO's safety, as well as their own, because they are not as well trained or equipped."

Mr Gordon, who said he was "staggered" that there was no minimum age for the position, suggested that some members of the public may become aggressive if young PCSOs attempted to discipline or detain them. He also claimed that officers were quite able to deal with young people themselves.

The row came after Thames Valley admitted it had hired the two recruits, who are currently undergoing training before taking up their paid roles.

Depending on their duties, they will have the authority to detain suspects until a police officer arrives, issue penalty notices, deal with minor offences and guard crime scenes.

They will also be able to confiscate alcohol consumed in a public place, despite being two years below the legal drinking age, and to direct traffic and have vehicles removed, even though they are too young to drive.

A Thames Valley spokeswoman said: "We have recruited these people because they demonstrated the skills that we need.

"They bring experience of being able to interact with the public, especially young people. If you are good enough you are old enough."

Other police forces said today they would be highly unlikely to hire such young PCSOs.

A Cambridgeshire police spokeswoman said: "Our minimum age for a PCSO is 18. The reason for that is so they have all the skills needed for the job.

"A large part of their work is around confiscating alcohol from underage people. They wouldn't be able to do that if they were underage themselves."
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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby AuxHorseman » Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:00 am

"Is mining somehow different than retail? Are grocery stores different than what liquor stores are? [Are] 7-Elevens and convenience stores different from what hospitals are? We all provide a service," she said.


I frequently joke that Saskatchewan is ruled by communists - guess it's no joke :shock:

As for the funding issues - I'm suprised that so many of you seriously suggest them for cuts. Sure, they've got an easier job most of the time, but the reason they're staffed the way they are is because when you really need them, you need lots of them, and fast. I would think it would work to the advantage of all involved if the different emergency services stuck together on stuff like this.

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Sombor » Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:24 am

FordAve wrote:For all the forum members, who feel that auxiliares should not be used to assist with policing, you may want to read this. I think that auxiliaries should be better utilized, but this crazy.

Fred Attewill and agencies
Monday August 13, 2007
Guardian Unlimited


The body representing rank-and-file police officers has described the hiring of two 16-year-old community support officers as a "nonsense" that could endanger lives.
Alan Gordon, the vice chairman of the Police Federation, said the "children" would be exposed to "inordinate risks" which they were ill-equipped to deal with because of their age.

He was speaking as Thames Valley police defended its decision to recruit the school leavers, claiming they would be able to interact with other young people.

A spokesman for the force said: "If you are good enough you are old enough."

However, Mr Gordon said Police Federation members were "not happy" about the move.

"These children are going to be put in a uniform the public believe to be of a police officer and be expected to take on responsibilities on the streets," he said.

"Police officers can't protect them from the unpredictability of policing. To expect 16-year-olds to have the knowledge of life, maturity and judgment to tackle incidents is incredulous.

"And what about the police officers who have to work with these people? We already have concerns when officers are in a conflict situation working with PCSOs [police community support officers].

"Officers are already saying to us they have to keep an eye on the PCSO's safety, as well as their own, because they are not as well trained or equipped."

Mr Gordon, who said he was "staggered" that there was no minimum age for the position, suggested that some members of the public may become aggressive if young PCSOs attempted to discipline or detain them. He also claimed that officers were quite able to deal with young people themselves.

The row came after Thames Valley admitted it had hired the two recruits, who are currently undergoing training before taking up their paid roles.

Depending on their duties, they will have the authority to detain suspects until a police officer arrives, issue penalty notices, deal with minor offences and guard crime scenes.

They will also be able to confiscate alcohol consumed in a public place, despite being two years below the legal drinking age, and to direct traffic and have vehicles removed, even though they are too young to drive.

A Thames Valley spokeswoman said: "We have recruited these people because they demonstrated the skills that we need.

"They bring experience of being able to interact with the public, especially young people. If you are good enough you are old enough."

Other police forces said today they would be highly unlikely to hire such young PCSOs.

A Cambridgeshire police spokeswoman said: "Our minimum age for a PCSO is 18. The reason for that is so they have all the skills needed for the job.

"A large part of their work is around confiscating alcohol from underage people. They wouldn't be able to do that if they were underage themselves."


PCSOs in England are like, kinda like Community Peace Officers in Alberta, less the use of force options (although North Wales and BTP PCSOs carry cuffies)

It is not normal for 16 year-olds to be hired on as PCSOs in England, most of them are in their 20s or so :)

Thames Valley Police always do things a little differently than the rest of England, I think the Home Office (kinda like a Sol Gen) can block their appointments if the Home Office believe that the hiring on 16 year olds as PCSOs is not wise, PCSOs are paid public servants. Auxillary Constables are called "Special Constables" in England.

Anyways, nighty night :)

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Apollo
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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Apollo » Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:39 am

I don't see a problem with those kids being hired. They're not even Auxiliaries, their more like a crossing guard-security guard-coop student.

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Sombor » Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:32 am

michael15 wrote:I don't see a problem with those kids being hired. They're not even Auxiliaries, their more like a crossing guard-security guard-coop student.


Not even close, PCSOs in England often patrol social housing, those PSCO assigned to areas where there is a substatial amount of social housing perform duties similar to a Toronto Housing Offences Officer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_com ... rt_officer

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Z# » Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:00 am

And how do they go about saying a 16 y/o "school leaver" is "good enough"? Unless I have the term confused. If I had more time, I'd go on - but I'll assert my opinion now.

Poor idea.
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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Mark P » Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:56 am

An auxiliary member should never be partnered with a regular member when doing front line police duties. It's a disaster waiting to happen IMO.

Sure, parades, festivals, picnics, car seat clinics, washing the patrol cars, polishing boots etc.. they are great for.

But when it comes to get down and dirty they shouldn't be put in a situation where they will get dispatched to calls that may get violent. And we all know that could be ANY call that comes on the board. They do not have the training nor experience to deal with these situations... :boxer:

Leave policing to trained, qualified, experienced (well, hopefully) and well compensated officers to do the job.

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby FordAve » Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:27 pm

Mark P wrote:An auxiliary member should never be partnered with a regular member when doing front line police duties. It's a disaster waiting to happen IMO.

Sure, parades, festivals, picnics, car seat clinics, washing the patrol cars, polishing boots etc.. they are great for.

But when it comes to get down and dirty they shouldn't be put in a situation where they will get dispatched to calls that may get violent. And we all know that could be ANY call that comes on the board. They do not have the training nor experience to deal with these situations... :boxer:

Leave policing to trained, qualified, experienced (well, hopefully) and well compensated officers to do the job.


Sounds like a line from a union play book.
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." Albert Einstien

"Your problem is low self-esteem. It's very common among losers."

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby z24 » Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:23 pm

Hey Mark, weren't you a tps aux too? Must have had some bad experiences huh? lol..

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Canadian Blue » Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:50 pm

What's with all the hate on here?


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