Question for Land Border CBSA folks out there...

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Question for Land Border CBSA folks out there...

Postby Respond Wayne » Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:44 pm

So, I recently had a "little issue" at the Border... Crossing back into Canada at Queenston this past week. :taser:

As some of you know, I work for a large rental car company and operate their Flatbed Tow Truck based out of Toronto... Quite often someone will smack up one of our rentals, and it's my job to go pick it up and bring it back to Toronto to be processed. Since 2003 I've had very little issues crossing the Borders, bringing damaged US rentals into the USA, and damaged Canadian rentals back into Canada... Since they are our own rentals being transported by an employee of the company (me) on a Flatbed Tow Truck owned by the same company, I've only ever needed proof of ownership (by way of either Ownership, Registration, or Title), and I'm usually good to go, the odd time I'll be sent into secondary just to "verify ownership of the vehicle", and the odd time one will be on file as stolen, so that takes a little longer to clear up, but I always make it through with little hassle.

This past week, to my shock (and still disbelief), I was told that I need to "import" every single vehicle that I'm bringing back into Canada... :dubious:

So that's why I'm here... Is this for reals? Or did I maybe catch someone on a bad day? :ponder:

The CBSA Officers were very helpful, showing me how to fill out the Canada Customs Invoice, noting that I will need copies of the vehicle ownerships, and showing me how to fill out the B-3 form on one of the 2 computers they have in their office... Then once that is complete, I wait for be called up by the Cashier to pay nothing since it's "Canadian Goods Returning".
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Re: Question for Land Border CBSA folks out there...

Postby John014 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:14 am

Respond Wayne wrote:So, I recently had a "little issue" at the Border... Crossing back into Canada at Queenston this past week. :taser:

As some of you know, I work for a large rental car company and operate their Flatbed Tow Truck based out of Toronto... Quite often someone will smack up one of our rentals, and it's my job to go pick it up and bring it back to Toronto to be processed. Since 2003 I've had very little issues crossing the Borders, bringing damaged US rentals into the USA, and damaged Canadian rentals back into Canada... Since they are our own rentals being transported by an employee of the company (me) on a Flatbed Tow Truck owned by the same company, I've only ever needed proof of ownership (by way of either Ownership, Registration, or Title), and I'm usually good to go, the odd time I'll be sent into secondary just to "verify ownership of the vehicle", and the odd time one will be on file as stolen, so that takes a little longer to clear up, but I always make it through with little hassle.

This past week, to my shock (and still disbelief), I was told that I need to "import" every single vehicle that I'm bringing back into Canada... :dubious:

So that's why I'm here... Is this for reals? Or did I maybe catch someone on a bad day? :ponder:

The CBSA Officers were very helpful, showing me how to fill out the Canada Customs Invoice, noting that I will need copies of the vehicle ownerships, and showing me how to fill out the B-3 form on one of the 2 computers they have in their office... Then once that is complete, I wait for be called up by the Cashier to pay nothing since it's "Canadian Goods Returning".


It has been a few years since I worked for CBSA so I wouldn't quote me but:

I think the officer was incorrect.

There are requirements for a commercial import to be completed on Canadian goods returning but I would say this is not the case for your scenario.

If the driver of the car had not smashed his rental up then he would be allowed to drive the vehicle back without importing it.
If that same driver also was an employee of the company would it change anything? I would suggest no.

Next time politely ask to speak to a supervisor as you do not believe it is correct or ask for it in writing the exact reason why you need to complete a B3.
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Re: Question for Land Border CBSA folks out there...

Postby NorthernProtector » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:00 am

Not necessarily. It may be a requirement under the new eManifest Program.
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Re: Question for Land Border CBSA folks out there...

Postby Bitterman » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:43 pm

Hey... CBSA has a lot of rules and regs to remember.
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Re: Question for Land Border CBSA folks out there...

Postby Respond Wayne » Sun Dec 25, 2016 2:38 pm

Thanks for the responses... just a bit of an update...

I crossed again this week, bringing back a damaged Santa Fe and a Golf with a mechanical issue... I crossed at the Peace Bridge and the Officer was totally fine with the copies of the Ontario ownerships I had, once he saw Avis Budget Group on my door, and me telling him I work for Avis Budget Group, and the cars belong to Avis Budget Group.

I also checked with my friend's Father who owned a large World Wide import / export business and is now the Managing Director for BNSF Logistics Canada, and his immediate response was "NO, you don't need to import your Canadian rental cars back into Canada."... "Did they get exported when they crossed into the USA... NO.".

So it looks like I'm forever stuck in the "grey area". I've tried to learn all the terms that I've heard to make the Officers understand, both crossing into the USA and then back into Canada. Such as "They are Canadian goods returning", "They are already part of US commerce", "It's a damaged rental car, I work for the company, and this is a company Tow Truck", "No, I don't have a eManifest, I don't require one since I'm not importing or exporting anything" (they actually won't even allow me to create an account, because I will never use it or have a need for it... I have tried)... Now if I do get sent into Secondary, when I'm asked what I'm doing there I will tell them "I don't know", then I explain the situation, and 95% of the time their response will be "why did they send you here, what and idiot", and they hand the paperwork back to me and send me on my way.

:twitch:
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Re: Question for Land Border CBSA folks out there...

Postby cbsa_insight » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:55 pm

Respond Wayne wrote:So, I recently had a "little issue" at the Border... Crossing back into Canada at Queenston this past week. :taser:

As some of you know, I work for a large rental car company and operate their Flatbed Tow Truck based out of Toronto... Quite often someone will smack up one of our rentals, and it's my job to go pick it up and bring it back to Toronto to be processed. Since 2003 I've had very little issues crossing the Borders, bringing damaged US rentals into the USA, and damaged Canadian rentals back into Canada... Since they are our own rentals being transported by an employee of the company (me) on a Flatbed Tow Truck owned by the same company, I've only ever needed proof of ownership (by way of either Ownership, Registration, or Title), and I'm usually good to go, the odd time I'll be sent into secondary just to "verify ownership of the vehicle", and the odd time one will be on file as stolen, so that takes a little longer to clear up, but I always make it through with little hassle.

This past week, to my shock (and still disbelief), I was told that I need to "import" every single vehicle that I'm bringing back into Canada... :dubious:

So that's why I'm here... Is this for reals? Or did I maybe catch someone on a bad day? :ponder:

The CBSA Officers were very helpful, showing me how to fill out the Canada Customs Invoice, noting that I will need copies of the vehicle ownerships, and showing me how to fill out the B-3 form on one of the 2 computers they have in their office... Then once that is complete, I wait for be called up by the Cashier to pay nothing since it's "Canadian Goods Returning".



Sorry for the delay in replying.

The inconsistency in processing is totally understandable, albeit frustrating. Let me explain this in simple terms. In THEORY, you should be completing a commercial B3 if you are re-importing Commercial goods into Canada. Whether or not they were properly exported (and in your case this would NEVER happen) is irrelevant.

Take for example a vessel carrying sea containers from Canada to India, if the containers themselves were to come back empty they would still be listed on a B3 document. The fact that it is Canadian Goods Returning, or previously imported goods just means that it is a $0 B3, so there is nothing to pay. A commercial good TECHNICALLY needs to be released on something, the B3 is the mechanism to execute that.

Now, in practice this hardly ever happens unless you're getting an officer that is either a crazy stickler or guru in commercial processing. I mean, this is NOT typically something that I would be sending for inspection at a land border unless I had concerns that the vehicle was stolen or It was being imported for the 1st time. 99% of Officers nationwide would be satisfied with the ownership, your company ID, and a declaration that you're re-importing Canadian Goods that have not been repaired outside of Canada. As in any profession, there are people that just go against the typical norm, it makes them militant but not incorrect, technically.

My best advice would be to have the information required to complete a B3 saved in your phone (Business Number, Importer number, business address) so you could complete one on the fly if necessary.

I hope that provides some clarification. Feel free to fire back with any supplemental questions if necessary.
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Re: Question for Land Border CBSA folks out there...

Postby Respond Wayne » Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:12 pm

:thumbsup:

Thanks for the information, and I have saved the paperwork from the 2 Canadian vehicles I "imported" back into Canada, so the information is with me.

I'm still poking at US CBP (for the past month) to get some sort of word if I need to join their E-Manifest program, since I was told in order to cross at the Peace Bridge I need to be on that program due to the construction going on... So now i just avoid the preclearance booth (which appears to be only manned by a bridge employee) by taking the car lanes... It just saves having to wait in the line of trucks before crossing into the USA to tell the person that I don't qualify for the E-Manifest program.

Maybe my next truck I order will be grey, and I'll wear grey clothing, since that seems to be the area I'm in... LOL!

I just wish there was some magic word I could say, that would trigger a "oh, okay, go ahead" response... :twitch:
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Re: Question for Land Border CBSA folks out there...

Postby ShadowBrooks » Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:49 pm

Respond Wayne wrote:I just wish there was some magic word I could say, that would trigger a "oh, okay, go ahead" response... :twitch:



I thought that was the reason for the Nexus card. I've been prodded every time except this last trip into Washington. Almost weird that you would allow someone that lives so far from the border to cross over with a Nexus card and only ask one question, same on my return back into BC.
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Re: Question for Land Border CBSA folks out there...

Postby Respond Wayne » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:05 pm

ShadowBrooks wrote:
Respond Wayne wrote:I just wish there was some magic word I could say, that would trigger a "oh, okay, go ahead" response... :twitch:



I thought that was the reason for the Nexus card. I've been prodded every time except this last trip into Washington. Almost weird that you would allow someone that lives so far from the border to cross over with a Nexus card and only ask one question, same on my return back into BC.


Ha, I DO have a Nexus Card... When I came in for the interview I specifically told them my main purpose of travel across the Border, transporting our Rental Cars back an forth for my employer... Even the Nexus staff told me "it's not a Commercial entry, it's a Business entry"... "Oh, but it's a grey area for you"... Ugh.

So my first trip into the USA with my new Nexus Card I was empty, so I drove up to the Nexus Booth with my Flatbed Tow Truck, everything went fine, no questions asked as to why my Commercial Vehicle was in the Nexus lane (hell, even in the Commercial lanes heading into the USA they advertise "Save Time, Get Nexus". Then heading back into Canada, I had a car on my truck, went through the Nexus lane, no problem.

Oh but the second time I tried it... NOPE! Into secondary where the US CBP Officer made a bunch of notes and spoke with me... Then heading back into Canada, I ran into the same problem... So it's truly a grey area I'm in, no one really seems to know the rules that apply to me... All I do know, heading into the USA I MUST use the Commercial lanes... and heading back into Canada I can use any lanes (except Nexus).

:ponder:
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Re: Question for Land Border CBSA folks out there...

Postby Tommy » Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:55 am

Have you looked into getting a FAST card Wayne?
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Re: Question for Land Border CBSA folks out there...

Postby Respond Wayne » Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:47 pm

Tommy wrote:Have you looked into getting a FAST card Wayne?


I do have NEXUS... I never considered FAST since I don't really transport "commercial cargo".
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Re: Question for Land Border CBSA folks out there...

Postby Tommy » Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:21 am

I was just thinking it would allow you to use the Designated FAST lanes at the POE since there seems to be confusion about commercial vehicles through NEXUS, so that would solve the lane issue I think.... I suppose you have a good point in that since you have no intention of transporting goods into the US, it would be unusual to be requesting a FAST card.... Maybe someone who is commercial savy could weigh in here as to the best course of action.
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Re: Question for Land Border CBSA folks out there...

Postby Respond Wayne » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:57 pm

Thanks for that!

There's also option #3... Wayne just avoids the Lewiston-Queenston Bridge, since that seems to be the one and only location that has "issues".

On a side note... I got to meet "Chewie" for about the third time since I started with Avis Budget, even yelled at him as his relief was arriving, LOL! :P
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Re: Question for Land Border CBSA folks out there...

Postby IrishCop » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:17 pm

Could this really happen, I would have thought that in this particular case the border patrol would have applied common sense, gave her a warning and let her be on her way.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/22/jogger-detained-us-border-cedella-roman-immigration-ordeal


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