How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

General Law Enforcement discussion which does not fit into other channels. Post your thoughts and feelings about anything you want (LE related), or just vent those fumes about whatever is on your chest.
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TheWidowsSon
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Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby TheWidowsSon » Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:16 pm

Every time I drive my car I have the opportunity to kill and maim but I don't. Of course, I could but I just don't.

But what about my neighbor or complete strangers that drive up and down the street within two or three feet the sidewalk I'm walking on with my wife and kids? Sure those people have a license to drive but should they? That car can easily be used to wipe out my entire family.

I say we ban all cars, trucks and even motorcycles.

Now, let us think about all the other things we can ban (read:CONTROL) for the good of society. :ponder:

It sure is lucky we have the government controlling every aspect of our lives to keep us irresponsible people out of harms way. Hell, they even protect my brain by telling me what I can and cannot watch on television through the CRTC. I pity those "grey market dish" people who are corrupting their brains and pray the government can find some way to punish them for their own good.
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TheWidowsSon
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Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby TheWidowsSon » Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:27 pm

Oh yeah!!

What is it that keeps those Brinks guards on the straight and narrow while walking our streets with guns strapped to their hips. We all know that as soon as they go off-duty they turn into homicidal maniacs hell bent on destruction and mayhem.

In any case, it sure is lucky they can keep it together while on the job. We wouldn't want someone stealing all that money from the banks. Sure money and property are replaceable but we're talking about the banks money here people!!

As for those same guards carrying a gun off-duty to protect themselves, their family or their own hard earned property, that's just CRAZY. :crazy: I mean, for Christ's sake, these guards can be hired a dime-a-dozen -- they're replaceable. It's not like we're talking about a head of state or a bank manager!

(Please excuse my sarcasm; it's the only way I know how to communicate for some reason. Any professional psychological advice (for free) would be greatly appreciated and, quite frankly, expected to be forthcoming.)
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Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby bigbadjoe108 » Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:41 pm

Horatio wrote:
remote wrote:slick-looking-dudes shouldn't be "allowed" to carry anything more lethal than a knife and fork.


+1 Well said.

remote wrote: I do believe that allowing trained, certified, practiced, responsible, accountable citizens to carry firearms for self defense can cut crime.



I like where your coming from, but here's where I get a little hazy. How many trained, certified, practiced, responsible, accountable citizens are there? I mean sure there are a lot of people on this forum who I'd be comfortable having CCW's but most of them are ALREADY carrying LEO's, or on their way to becoming such. What I'm concerned about is the "average" person, who passes all his training and such and appears to be the model CCW holder, but then gets drunk one night and does something stupid? A lot of people's personalities change SIGNIFICANTLY when they've been drinking. Or what about people who find themselves in emotionally charged situations? Someone may be relatively sane and normal, but then they have a really bad day, and get cut off in traffic on the way home. In todays society this may result in not much more then shouting/swearing/bird flipping, maybe at WORST a fist fight at the side of the road. What would happen if this person just happened to have access to a firearm at the time? I'm not talking about the gangster sh!tbag who already has a "nine" in his glove box, I mean the middle aged business man who doesn't carry now - but would if he could legally.

Don't label me a hippie burn out just yet, I'm just playing the devils advocate on this matter. :boxer:


Uh, well, you prosecute him/her...

:ponder:
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Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby Alberta Blue » Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:47 pm

TheWidowsSon wrote:Every time I drive my car I have the opportunity to kill and maim but I don't. Of course, I could but I just don't.


Good point - you may not have, but plenty of people do. And every fatal motor vehicle crash I have been to, including dangerous or impaired causing death, the driver never *intended* to kill anyone (if you ask him/her). And guess what, most are appropriately licensed and have all their paperwork in order.

It just goes to show that no matter how much screening or training CCW advocates think will suffice, it will never be enough. There were always be negligent/accidental discharges, and eventually the odd accidental shooting of another human being. Hell, police officer and soldiers are the best trained in the world when it comes to firearms, and there are still plenty examples of firearms misconduct among them.

The solution to crime is not to put more guns on the street, its to get the guns out of the hands of the criminals, and to get the criminals off the street.

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Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby TheWidowsSon » Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:56 pm

Or we could just chop off the hands of criminals and put everyone else into giant hamster balls so we're all perfectly safe.

Seriously, there will always be criminals. In fact, the more laws that are enacted, the more criminals there'll be. I'm just tired of the nanny-state taking away more and more freedoms under guise of it being for our own good.
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Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby Jim Street » Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:32 pm

I have no problem with guns themselves, I don't think that guns are the actual problem, it's the user and the widespread availability.

I am glad that Canada has a more restrictive attitude and applicable laws regarding handguns and other very dangerous weapons.

Sure, my opinion is biased because I carry, but it's a common argument that "if he/she had a gun then that guy wouldn't have done ____". And it's flawed. Where do these common citizens who need this protection carry such a weapon? In a concealed holster? In a purse? Ankle holster?

The odds are simply not in favour of the firearm user to be able to draw and use it when the time comes.

I carry because I'm required to and am trained on it. It's a huge responsibility to have one slung on your hip and that fact can never be lost on anyone who carries. They are a tool that I wish was unnecessary to do the job, but that's not the reality I live in.

You can argue all you want that all policing is reactive and it's mostly report writing, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it but you've never been in any active shooter situation, nor in a situation where you've arrived and had to fire back in the course of your duties, taking a life or seriously wounding someone.

Taking your gun to the firing range, popping off some rounds, becoming an experienced target shooter, keeping a vast array of firearms in your house for hunting or "protection" because the big bad government can't be trusted to "protect" you, or whatever you want to believe, still doesn't put you in those same situations. This isn't a movie.
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Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby Bitterman » Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:57 pm

Jim Street wrote:I have no problem with guns themselves, I don't think that guns are the actual problem, it's the user and the widespread availability.

I am glad that Canada has a more restrictive attitude and applicable laws regarding handguns and other very dangerous weapons.

Sure, my opinion is biased because I carry, but it's a common argument that "if he/she had a gun then that guy wouldn't have done ____". And it's flawed. Where do these common citizens who need this protection carry such a weapon? In a concealed holster? In a purse? Ankle holster?

The odds are simply not in favour of the firearm user to be able to draw and use it when the time comes.

I carry because I'm required to and am trained on it. It's a huge responsibility to have one slung on your hip and that fact can never be lost on anyone who carries. They are a tool that I wish was unnecessary to do the job, but that's not the reality I live in.

You can argue all you want that all policing is reactive and it's mostly report writing, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it but you've never been in any active shooter situation, nor in a situation where you've arrived and had to fire back in the course of your duties, taking a life or seriously wounding someone.

Taking your gun to the firing range, popping off some rounds, becoming an experienced target shooter, keeping a vast array of firearms in your house for hunting or "protection" because the big bad government can't be trusted to "protect" you, or whatever you want to believe, still doesn't put you in those same situations. This isn't a movie.



No disrespect intended, but...

Your position is elitest.
Admit nothing.
Deny everything.
Make counter accusations...

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Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby Jim Street » Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:24 pm

Bitterman wrote:No disrespect intended, but...

Your position is elitest.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/elitist
Websters:

Elitist
The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.


The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.

Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class


By definition, no I don't think so.

Your opinion is based on this due to the fact that I carry in the course of my duties. Biased slightly, perhaps.

I won't re-write what I already posted, it's pretty self explanatory.

No disrespect but judging from your posts, it would appear that you're mostly anti-government and a bit of a gun nut. Do you not think it's easier to call my opinion elitist only because you're not carrying a firearm in the course of your duties?

Guns are tools, they are only as good as the user and the training. While it's not guns that kill people, it's the user, I'm quite happy that there are laws in place that restrict the use and possession of handguns.

Actually, whenever I read all this nonsense about everyone having a gun etc. all I can think about is when Homer Simpson gets a gun and the ridiculousness that ensues.
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Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby TheWidowsSon » Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:31 pm

VanB wrote:[BTW, the word you're looking for is elitist.

Oh sure, let's pick on people's typos. :shame:

The fact remains: Criminals will continue to CCW no matter what the law says. If it's legal for well trained, properly vetted, non-criminals to CCW, the number of criminals doing so will continue.

However, I understand the argument that if the law was changed to allow people to CCW it would lead to more guns in circulation and, therefore, more weapons available for criminals to get their hands on. But really, isn't that what we pay the Police to keep under control?

If we take that way of thinking to the extreme, where will it end? Will the homeowner that has his house ransacked get charged for not locking his door? Will the mugging victim get charged for carrying too much cash in his wallet? Will the female be charged for dressing too provocative?

I could go on and on with what are, admittedly, silly analogies. But the point I'm trying to make is that taking away the freedoms of law-biding citizens to limit crime is the epitome of the slippery slope theory.
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Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby TheWidowsSon » Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:41 pm

Jim Street wrote:No disrespect but judging from your posts, it would appear that you're mostly anti-government and a bit of a gun nut.

C'mon now, Jim. Questioning laws and giving one's opinion doesn't equate to being anti-government (anarchist?). Otherwise, those who fought to change slavery laws (in the U.S.) and those who questioned the prohibition of women's right to vote were anti-government. Labeling someone expressing their views with derogatory terms hardly lends itself to the exercising of free speech. And we all agree in that, don't we?
Jim Street wrote: Actually, whenever I read all this nonsense about everyone having a gun etc. all I can think about is when Homer Simpson gets a gun and the ridiculousness that ensues.

:lol: Now that was a great episode!
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Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby Jim Street » Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:47 pm

I never said to take any freedoms away and further restrict citizens. But to all the sudden allow concealed carrying of handguns would not solve anything except to have more people with access to guns which doesn't solve anything.

Ideally, tax payers are paying police to curb gun crime. But they're also paying police to curb drugs and gangs. It's essentially just plugging holes in a dam. There's no reason to make guns more readily available.

The entire debate on here always brings out differing strong opinions. But I still don't think too many police officers would want to deal with calls in the same way American police officers do with the enormous quantity of guns that are available there. I can only speak for myself but I sure am glad.
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Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby Jim Street » Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:53 pm

TheWidowsSon wrote:C'mon now, Jim. Questioning laws and giving one's opinion doesn't equate to being anti-government (anarchist?). Otherwise, those who fought to change slavery laws (in the U.S.) and those who questioned the prohibition of women's right to vote were anti-government. Labeling someone expressing their views with derogatory terms hardly lends itself to the exercising of free speech. And we all agree in that, don't we?


Yeah, but I'm elitist?

I'm not saying that we shouldn't question and that we have a freedom of speech etc. I was addressing the extremist type posts like how government can't protect us so I'll load up my guns etc.

The flavour of the posts, not necessarily by Bitterman, but posts of this general nature, are very similar to anti-government wingnut militias from the States.

To simply say that the police can't be everywhere to protect me so I'll just carry a gun is a pretty flawed argument for the safety of yourself and the general public.
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