University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

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Dave Jenkins
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Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Postby Dave Jenkins » Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:34 pm

If you are a student it is presumed that by the time you have reached university you have obtained the wherewithal to figure certain things out. Things like parking your vehicle where it shouldn't be parked or circumventing the gated system will have a consequence.

The very bottom line is that the system McMaster has in place for dealing with these matters works. It has been in place for quite some time and has yet to be overturned. Whether you think it to be right or wrong is mute.

The university many years back made the choice to keep traffic and parking control "in-house" for a number of reasons. Maintaining control being the number one reason. City by-law use was considered but ultimately that concept was not adopted. A key component to that choice was having the ticket revenue going to the city rather than the university.
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Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Postby gotchya » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:10 am

Dave Jenkins wrote: Whether you think it to be right or wrong is0 mute.

It would be moot, not mute.
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Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Postby gotchya » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:16 am

Dave Jenkins wrote:The university many years back made the choice to keep traffic and parking control "in-house" for a number of reasons. Maintaining control being the number one reason. City by-law use was considered but ultimately that concept was not adopted. A key component to that choice was having the ticket revenue going to the city rather than the university.

Exactly. I'm sure that someone whose making a decision are fair and throwing out tickets is encouraged, as certainly revenue is no issue.
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Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Postby Angerman » Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:17 am

gotchya wrote:Exactly. I'm sure that someone whose making a decision are fair and throwing out tickets is encouraged, as certainly revenue is no issue.


Kinda flogging a dead horse at this point, aren't we? Its clear you think that that the way the system at Mac works is biased, and it may well be, but McMaster manages to handle the adjudication of its internal matters using processes that have been established by the board of governors and with community members (that includes students) input.

I am certain there are those that feel they have been wronged by it (no different than those that deal with the courts unsuccessfully), and if they want to change the way the system is run they have recourse through the student union and student government reps, a University is hardly a dictatorial regime oppressing the students.

For the time being, it is what it is, and the only people crying out about the injustice seem to be those that resent being told they can't ignore the rules that are in place.

We've strayed a fair distance from the original point which was whether University Special Constables had the authority to stop motorists on private property, not so much whether the mechanism used to adjudicate University infractions was biased and unfair.

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Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Postby gotchya » Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:30 am

Angerman wrote:We've strayed a fair distance from the original point which was whether University Special Constables had the authority to stop motorists on private property, not so much whether the mechanism used to adjudicate University infractions was biased and unfair.

A thread off track on blueline...say it ain't so!
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Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Postby devilwoman » Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:05 am

So then why do you care that students don't pay for parking its less than $30. $30 is $30.


We care, as most times, students/staff stealing parking is not limited to a one time thing. We have many going before the courts for stealing a year's worth of parking. Additionally, we care as many of these people are committing the act of mischief by snapping off/bending gate arms, at a cost of $250/per, to avoid paying the daily ($20) and evening ($6) rate.

The fact of the matter is this, my friend, you come onto the Mac campus, you play by the rules set down by Mac.

Exactly. I'm sure that someone whose making a decision are fair and throwing out tickets is encouraged, as certainly revenue is no issue.


As for it being a source of revenue.....look once again at the stats here. 147 tickets issued in a year. Say half are for gate arm related offences ($75) and others for traffic related (speed/stop signs at $30), you're looking at $7770 for the year. Considering we've had gate arm controllers destroyed at a cost of $5000/unit and gate arms by the dozens destroyed. Frankly, the money received from tickets doesn't even make a dent on the money lost. The university is not getting rich on this, nor is our department. You're a smart dude, you tell me, is less than $8000/yr even going to make a dent in anyone's budget? Especially Mac's? The university has 56 buildings on our campus alone, factor in the Continuing education center, the Longwood site, and the Burlington campus (not to mention other small research facilities elsewhere throughout Hamilton and Niagara regions).

Compare this to say the City of Hamilton By-Law peeps. A friend of mine works there and, on average, can write 50 tickets a night, at an average of $30/ticket. So $1500 in revenue per one parking enforcement officer per shift. They run 3 shifts, 6 days a week. That's $27g/week. That's not factoring in fire route and disabled spot tickets. So almost 1.5 million in revenue.

More food for thought, we are always catching people for stealing parking services and its a repeat thing. The least amount of times for one offender, for me, has been 5 times. So $100 worth of theft. I could go criminally, but I, instead, issue them a ticket and a 30 day suspension and send the file to Student Code. You may think the $75 ticket is unfair, but let me ask you, should I instead go criminally? The fact of the matter is this, when the file gets sent to Student Code of Conduct, they can choose to have a hearing of their peers or by the Student Conduct officer. They have a way to plead their case.

Truth of the matter is this, they have to learn there is consequences for their actions. That even on campus you face consequences. Most seem ignorant of this and feel campus should be a "consequence free" zone.
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Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Postby Gard » Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:35 am

If you ask me, the universities are probably breaking the rules by having their own constabulary, never mind adjudicating their own tickets.

Damn schools, full of damn.......smart people.

Who do they think they is? I should be able to park wherever I want on campus and not have to worry about some oppressor keeping me down with a parking ticket. I have a Charter of Rights, man. My uncle lost his arm in Viet Nam fighting the Nazis so I could be free to park willy-nilly at the U.

Martin Luther King must be turning in his grave.
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Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Postby Dave Jenkins » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:35 pm

gotchya wrote:
Dave Jenkins wrote: Whether you think it to be right or wrong is0 mute.

It would be moot, not mute.


Thanks for correcting me on that. I had not noticed that grievous error.
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Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Postby Gard » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:52 pm

It's egregious.
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Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Postby GoodWitness » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:00 pm

This discussion reminded me of a piece I listened to one evening on CBC, concerning university students who were disciplined for publicly criticizing a professor. It became a charter case and the courts came down on the side of the students, saying essentially that a university, being publicly funded and carrying out their roles under various gov't acts, are bound by the charter.
http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/episode/2011/11/16/university-of-calgary-vs-free-speech/

The university continues to challenge the ruling, saying that it impinges on their autonomy. While I completely agree that people need to abide by the rules of the institution, the fact that they could be denied the right to defend themselves against a charge would seem to go against the charter.

For example, the stop signs: I've read a completely absurd Canlii example where a HRPS officer issued a ticket for failing to stop at a stop sign, and the subject managed to wiggle out of it by saying she was sure she stopped because her car has a digital speedo and she looked down and noted it was reading zero, and that she was sure she stopped because there had been a blue car in front of her that stopped at the stop sign.

The officer hadn't noted a blue car, and the court found her testimony detailed and compelling. (If the crown had simply asked her how many times she saw the zero it would have gone differently, I think. Maybe asked her what her speed was between stopping behind the blue car and the stop line. Even if she was telling the truth, I would interpret it as "I stopped behind a blue car, they went through, and I followed - without stopping a second time at the stop line." Duh.)

While it was a BS defense, the court accepted it. If you don't have the right to your own BS defense in a publicly funded "private" system, well... And I went to university. A lot of it revolves around BS. :D
Last edited by GoodWitness on Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Postby Dave Jenkins » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:20 pm

Gard wrote:It's egregious.


Well it depends.....it may well be egregious as it was a glaringly bad error in my choice of words. However, I thought it to be a grievous error, as it did appeared to cause gotchya some much suffering so as to need to bring it to my attention.
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Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Postby Dave Jenkins » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:26 pm

IrishCanadian wrote:
Gard wrote:It's egregious.


Well played sire!


?

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Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Postby Gard » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:35 pm

David, it's your incessant spouting of such baraqouin which has likely prompted gotcha to absquatulate.

Eschew obfuscation, my grey-bearded friend! Espouse elucidation!
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Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Postby Dave Jenkins » Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:33 pm

Gard wrote:David, it's your incessant spouting of such baraqouin which has likely prompted gotcha to absquatulate.

Eschew obfuscation, my grey-bearded friend! Espouse elucidation!


In my mind, my gibberish ain't.....it is quite clear to me. If my gibberish causes someone to argue against my point then they need to learn to understand gibberish so as to full comprehend what is being said. I've got my own rules about expressing myself! Never cared for them there fumblerules used by educators in an attempt to pervert my expressing myself in my own way.

But the fancy words did bring a chuckle to me day! Carry on.....
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it.
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