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Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:32 pm
by devilwoman
Who holds the burden of proof? What is the bar that must be met? Balance of Probabilities, Reasonable Grounds, Beyond a Reasonable Doubt.


Dude, its a university regulation ticket. At most it will be $75 (at least in our neck of the woods).

If we are going criminally, say for the parking fraud/theft, trust me, we will ensure we have all the RPG necessary to pursue those charges.

As for the regulation ticket appeal, the officer who issues the ticket has already completed a report, but they will also be asked to complete a statement (similar to a willstate) when the ticket is appealed. The person in contravention of the regulation has the burden of proof fall upon them, but they are provided with all the officer's information. We all keep great notes, even for simple university regulation traffic stops, as well, we should. I know I do, especially if I run the person and vehicle through CPIC. I can't tell you how many times people I've stopped for basic center core violations have come up with some serious records and flagged violent, etc. and have no affiliation to our campus.

Keep in mind, for a "center core" violation, if you're in center core, which is clearly marked, you have to explain your reasons.....additionally, we, in my time there, have NEVER dinged someone who is lost or trying to find their way around campus with that ticket. We aren't douches....we inform them of the violation, then we help them find their way....many times we even give them an escort to where they need to go.

What I'm saying here is this, for the most part we do "education" when we do these traffic stops. I'm sure students think we are out there dinging them left, right and center for tickets aka revenue. The fact of the matter is, I'd say 85% of the time, we are using the stop to correct the behaviour not issue tickets. So when we do issue one, there is a good reason....we've run the person through our system and noted they've been stopped previously and cautioned/issued ticket (so behaviour is continuing), they've run a series of stop signs while being observed by the officer, etc.

So yes, you, if you are issued a ticket and choose to appeal it, have the burden of proof....but keep in mind, there is reports and notes completed and you are not just told to go pound salt.

Basically......if you get a ticket, there was a good reason. We don't jack up students for cash.

Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:25 pm
by gotchya
Dude, its a university regulation ticket. At most it will be $75 (at least in our neck of the woods).

Would you allow someone to steal $75?

If we are going criminally, say for the parking fraud/theft, trust me, we will ensure we have all the RPG necessary to pursue those charges.

But in the "hearings" what is the bar the applicant must meet? I'll assume balance of probabilities as it seems to be "Administrative law".


devilwoman wrote:As for the regulation ticket appeal, the officer who issues the ticket has already completed a report, but they will also be asked to complete a statement (similar to a willstate) when the ticket is appealed. The person in contravention of the regulation has the burden of proof fall upon them, but they are provided with all the officer's information. We all keep great notes, even for simple university regulation traffic stops, as well, we should. I know I do, especially if I run the person and vehicle through CPIC. I can't tell you how many times people I've stopped for basic center core violations have come up with some serious records and flagged violent, etc. and have no affiliation to our campus.



devilwoman wrote:So yes, you, if you are issued a ticket and choose to appeal it, have the burden of proof....but keep in mind, there is reports and notes completed and you are not just told to go pound salt.

Who is the trier of facts? A representative of the university?

What happens when one refuses to pay the ticket? Are they denied a university degree, if so, then I would argue that the
32. (1) This Charter applies
(b) to the legislature and government of each province in respect of all matters within the authority of the legislature of each province.

The university's ability to grant degrees is provide by the province, if the university refuses to issue one due to outstanding "parking tickets" issued by the university and adjudicated by the university, I believe would engage the Charter.Now if they were issued as provincial offenses tickets that would be an entirely different discussion.

Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:31 pm
by Dave Jenkins
gotchya wrote:
devilwoman wrote:They usually do grant an appeal. Rarely have I seen someone not get one. With that being said, one of our biggest problems going on is students and staff trying to defraud the parking system (I won't say how, but let's just say we've been charging people criminally, that's how extensive it is....not talking $100) and we have video cameras on EVERY entrance and exit of the parking lots. People feel entitled and feel they have a right to park for free (let the record show I pay for parking....same amount as everyone else), so no one gets it for free.

So feel free to fight your ticket and you can explain your actions to our Director (who is a retired HPS Superintendent) and I'm sure he will be sympathetic to your arguments as to why you feel you can not obey campus regulations and not have to stop for us. I'm sure he will be VERY attentive.

Who holds the burden of proof? What is the bar that must be met? Balance of Probabilities, Reasonable Grounds, Beyond a Reasonable Doubt.


:roll: Good grief.....

McMaster-

Moving violations are observed by an officer and acted upon accordingly. If a university ticket is issued the recipient may appeal it. So as an example -fail to stop at stop sign- The offense was observed by the officer. The offender can try and explain why they didn't stop but really, what valid reason is there to not stop at a stop sign? Speed enforcement uses laser units. Again, what valid reason can one have to exceed the posted limit?

Parking violations such as parking on roadways, lawns and marked handicap spaces is really straight forward. The signage says it all. You chose to ignore the signs so you pay the price. Mac's Parking Control Officers often take photos of violations as a form of corroboration.

Now playing games with the automated parking system lots is another kettle of fish. Without getting into the specifics of what is attempted all I need to say is cameras, cameras and more cameras. All aspects of the system are recorded. That not only includes the video but transactions at pay stations and gate activities.

Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:43 pm
by Dave Jenkins
gotchya wrote:The university's ability to grant degrees is provide by the province, if the university refuses to issue one due to outstanding "parking tickets" issued by the university and adjudicated by the university, I believe would engage the Charter.Now if they were issued as provincial offenses tickets that would be an entirely different discussion.


Mac holds back your transcript which is a document that is part of the over all service provided by the university and is a part of what must be paid for collectively with other costs of attending the university. Your tuition, book store and meal program are all part of this same deal. You don't pay the outstanding balance you don't get your transcript. You may have met the requirements for earning your degree but if you don't pay your tab they are not going to proceed with completing your paper work. It is that simple.

The only thing further I can say is that it has been a method that has been tested over time and the university has yet to have been forced to cough up paper work without being completely compensated. Your view translates to ....if I pass my driving test they have to give me a license whether or not I pay the full fee.... Not going to happen.

Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:03 pm
by RemingtonSteel
I see nothing wrong with them enforcing things as they do. HTA doesn't apply as it's private property, but at the same time the university has a responsibility to ensure the safety of people who use their roads which they do through enforcement. Way I see it, it's private property, they set the rules, if you don't want to follow them, then don't go to campus - you don't have a right to operate a vehicle on university property, it's a privilege that they grant to you.

Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:49 pm
by devilwoman
Jenkins said it quite well and let's be honest here, the university has a team of lawyers who, I can say with some confidence, are not going to allow Charter violations.

Way I see it, it's private property, they set the rules, if you don't want to follow them, then don't go to campus - you don't have a right to operate a vehicle on university property, it's a privilege that they grant to you.


Adding to this, as a student, you are well versed on Student Code of Conduct and Residence Code of Conduct. You are made FULLY aware of the consequences of breaching both those. Some people may think its unfair that SCC or RCC fines students for certain breaches, but in many cases it saves them a criminal charge. Many times, students have received Code of Conduct violations for criminal acts (smashing windows, etc) and received fines, rather than have them go before the courts.

I will stand by my opinion that you operate a vehicle on our campus, you should face penalties if you are driving in a manner that breaks simple rules of the road. If I blow a stop sign in Hamilton, get dinged under HTA and don't pay the ticket, is it fair that my licence is suspended? Absolutely. Campus is no different. With one exception, breaking the rules of the road will not cost you points or an insurance hike. Seems like they are getting off easy to me. Especially when you consider a stop sign ticket with us is $30 and so is speeding.

Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:46 pm
by gotchya
Dave Jenkins wrote:Who holds the burden of proof? What is the bar that must be met? Balance of Probabilities, Reasonable Grounds, Beyond a Reasonable Doubt.

:roll: Good grief..... I think these are important questions, something a person making a decision on the "guilt" of someone else should know.

Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:53 pm
by gotchya
devilwoman wrote:I will stand by my opinion that you operate a vehicle on our campus, you should face penalties if you are driving in a manner that breaks simple rules of the road. If I blow a stop sign in Hamilton, get dinged under HTA and don't pay the ticket, is it fair that my licence is suspended? Absolutely. Campus is no different. With one exception, breaking the rules of the road will not cost you points or an insurance hike. Seems like they are getting off easy to me. Especially when you consider a stop sign ticket with us is $30 and so is speeding.

Its very different. If I receive a ticket for an HTA offense I can fight that ticket in a court of law, where under oath, an officer provides his statement and I provide mine. The person that overhears the decision is an independent adjudicator not someone working for the university.

Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:56 pm
by gotchya
RemingtonSteel wrote:I see nothing wrong with them enforcing things as they do. HTA doesn't apply as it's private property, but at the same time the university has a responsibility to ensure the safety of people who use their roads which they do through enforcement. Way I see it, it's private property, they set the rules, if you don't want to follow them, then don't go to campus - you don't have a right to operate a vehicle on university property, it's a privilege that they grant to you.

That's assuming that all road on the university are in fact "private" roads, as many universities have public roads running through them.

Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:59 pm
by devilwoman
That's assuming that all road on the university are in fact "private" roads, as many universities have public roads running through them.


I think Remington is referring to McMaster as its been the primary example here. All of our roads are private. For those universities that have public roads going through, they have HTA authority.

The person that overhears the decision is an independent adjudicator not someone working for the university.


The fact of the matter is, no one is going to be a douche to a student and let us get away with writing shady tickets...university or PON wise.

Let me ask you, do you think its right for us to allow students to jump curbs to avoid paying for parking? Even though every other person has to pay? Should we, instead, send all their tickets to collection agencies and have their credit rating affected?

Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:47 pm
by Dave Jenkins
gotchya wrote:
Dave Jenkins wrote:Who holds the burden of proof? What is the bar that must be met? Balance of Probabilities, Reasonable Grounds, Beyond a Reasonable Doubt.

:roll: Good grief..... I think these are important questions, something a person making a decision on the "guilt" of someone else should know.


OK, regarding the moving and parking violations......they are what they are and in the grand scheme of thing it is as balanced a system as is warranted. Now when things cross the line and get serious the process changes. Frauds against the university (regarding parking) are dealt with as criminal matters and not a university regulation. Actual charges are laid and regular courts used.

Back to the traffic and parking aspect. These are not complex violations. They are 99.999999% cut and dry. Failing to stop for a stop sign.....what is a defense? If there is a reasonable excuse there are few officers that would have issued the ticket in the first place.

The Mac Student Code of Conduct and Residence Code of Conduct have been in place for a good many years. they are an alternate in minor matters and can run parallel to criminal or provincial charges. Once again, the structure is such that there has never been a issues with using the system.

Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:40 pm
by devilwoman
If there is a reasonable excuse there are few officers that would have issued the ticket in the first place.


Exactly my point.....we rarely write these tickets. In fact, our parking staff write waaaaaaaaaaay more university regs tickets than we do. In fact, after checking our Annual Report for 2010 - it shows we issued 147 university regulation tickets (so the equivalent of one every second day and we do quite a few traffic stops..) and if I was so inclined to check, which I'm not, I bet you that 3/4 of those were related to people pushing up parking gate arms or jumping curbs or driving on the pedestrian walks....all to avoid paying for parking (so theft basically). Very few, I'm sure, are actually related to stop signs or speed. I'll be honest, I don't write the tickets for stop signs that often as, well, IMHO $30 for blowing a stop sign isn't enough of a monetary punishment, especially considering we are a "pedestrian" campus.

I'd love to have the penalties raised, but from what I understand, we would have to go to the Board Of Govenors to do so and they are not interested in raising any of the set fines.

Good grief..... I think these are important questions, something a person making a decision on the "guilt" of someone else should know.


Come on now, these aren't major frauds or assaults we are discussing here. They are $30 tickets. Tickets that could be avoided if, once on campus, a person abides by the same rules of the road that they do on city streets. Which most people seem to forget to do the moment they enter Sterling Street, Main Street or Cootes entrances.

Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:19 pm
by RemingtonSteel
gotchya wrote:That's assuming that all road on the university are in fact "private" roads, as many universities have public roads running through them.


Yep, they don't issue University Offence Notices for public roadways though. Best example being UWO, if they catch you violating a traffic offence on a public roadway such as Western Road, they will proceed by virtue of the HTA. However if they stop you for a violation on a private road such as Perth Drive, they'll proceed with their own inhouse tickets as it's a private road and HTA doesn't apply.

McMaster, Laurier, Waterloo etc. don't have these issues as every road on campus is private,

Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:43 pm
by Sk82
Every road on the u of s campus is a public provincial road. All our traffic tickets are between the offender and the courts. They are provincial tickets. Even the u of s bylaw tickets can be disputed in traffic court. My department rarely charges people with the u of s bylaw act. The only time I seem to use the u of s bylaw act is for people leaving a parking lot without paying or tampering with parking pay equipment. The rest are provincial charges.

Re: University Special Constables-Traffic Enforcement

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:09 pm
by gotchya
The fact of the matter is, no one is going to be a douche to a student and let us get away with writing shady tickets...university or PON wise.

An even if they were a douche there is no appeals process beyond them. Somehow I don't think they provide written reasons as to why they are found not "not guilty" (reverse onus).

devilwoman wrote:Let me ask you, do you think its right for us to allow students to jump curbs to avoid paying for parking? Even though every other person has to pay? Should we, instead, send all their tickets to collection agencies and have their credit rating affected?

You can send whatever you want to a collection agency it doesn't mean there was an agreement between you and the student to pay those tickets. The university tickets have no force under law.

Come on now, these aren't major frauds or assaults we are discussing here. They are $30 tickets.

So then why do you care that students don't pay for parking its less than $30. $30 is $30.