New Smith & Wesson M & P

Discussion for firearms and less-lethal equipment.
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Dave Brown
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Postby Dave Brown » Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:54 am

All I can say is to NEVER NEVER NEVER cock a double-action revolver with your thumb if you are ever training for the street. Under stress, you will likely do this and will very likely shoot yourself, shoot the suspect or shoot your partner. There is not one single legitimate tactical firearms instructor in Canada today who would ever teach anyone to do this.

I am not going to get into more detail about physiology of stress and the loss of fine motor skills because it is obvious you just don't have the level of training to know WHY we teach it this way, nor the need to even KNOW why.

As for the aluminum brass; don't do it. It is not made to be reloaded, and there have been some cases of head separation. It is false economy. It is just as bad as buying "new" pistol ammunition from third-world countries or former Eastern Bloc countries where copyright laws don't exist and they make cheap knock-off components that look the same but aren't.

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Postby VoteQuimby » Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:37 am

Dave Brown wrote:All I can say is to NEVER NEVER NEVER cock a double-action revolver with your thumb if you are ever training for the street. Under stress, you will likely do this and will very likely shoot yourself, shoot the suspect or shoot your partner. There is not one single legitimate tactical firearms instructor in Canada today who would ever teach anyone to do this.

I am not going to get into more detail about physiology of stress and the loss of fine motor skills because it is obvious you just don't have the level of training to know WHY we teach it this way, nor the need to even KNOW why.

As for the aluminum brass; don't do it. It is not made to be reloaded, and there have been some cases of head separation. It is false economy. It is just as bad as buying "new" pistol ammunition from third-world countries or former Eastern Bloc countries where copyright laws don't exist and they make cheap knock-off components that look the same but aren't.


Boy, you sound stressed! Yes, I will never carry a revolver on the streets again. While target shooting I have used this. My father had a couple of revolvers in his collection and shot a lot. He wasn't a cop, so he didn't teach me anything about shooting under stress. Anyway, I am sure the method you have described with regards to semis will be taught by CBSA when my turn comes around as they RCs are training our instructors so I will follow the training I am given.

Thanks for the insight on the ammo. $10 isn't a lot.

Without getting too excited;) Can you explain why the mag release isn't a fine motor skill but the slide stop is? Just curious.
Son, we live in a world that has walls and those walls need to be guarded by men with guns.

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Dave Brown
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Postby Dave Brown » Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:58 am

VoteQuimby wrote:Without getting too excited;) Can you explain why the mag release isn't a fine motor skill but the slide stop is? Just curious.


Yes, I can.

Is that unexcited enough for you?

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Dave Brown
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Postby Dave Brown » Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:29 pm

And ... just to get this thread back on topic - as if a Blue Line forum thread has NEVER gotten off topic before :) - watch the December issue for a review on the S&W M&P.

If you are looking for another glowing review of the new S&W pistol from a magazine who depends on advertising and has a vested interest in presenting 'glowing reviews' of new products, you do NOT want to read Blue Line. There are a dozen US gun publications that already fill that niche.

Yes, we depend on advertising to survive as a private enterprise (Blue Line has never accepted one penny of taxpayer subsidies) but we also tell it like it is. We actually had a chance to recently test the pistol in a head-to-head comparison to everything else on the market, and you can read about it in December.

Without giving the story away, let me state out front that I am not a fan of S&W semi-autos, but my personal views had NO influence on this comparison test, and I was surprised at how well the S&W compares in real life head-to-head shooting tests using a variety of experienced and inexperienced law enforcement shooters. (Dang, I hope I don't have to take back everything bad I ever said about S&W semi-autos! Of course, reviewing some of my past comments, I always said the S&W M&P was "untested." I can now change that to "tested, and watch for the report soon.")

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Pete Broccolo
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Postby Pete Broccolo » Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:11 am

DB excitable?! Hardly! And that's saying something, considering he did a ride-along with me :shock: :P

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Postby Gard » Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:50 pm

I teach the overhand grip method of releasing the slide and I correct anyone I catch using the slide-stop or the slingshot method to release it.

I don't like the slingshot method because the shooter doesn't have as firm a grip on the firearm. The overhand grip allows you to rack that slide with maximum "authority" and is not as fine a motor skill as the slingshot method.

Another reason I don't like the slingshot method is that virtually everyone who uses it ends up with their barrel pointing away from the threat area in the middle of the pull. Watch for it on the range...it causes the barrel to move up and to the right (for right handers, anyway).

Overhand allows the shooter to remain on target and to bring the pistol back closer to the body for more stability if needed. Very hard to do with the slingshot.

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Postby INTERCEPTOR » Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:35 pm

While instructing for Brinks it was nice to see that 80% of the older Model 10 revolvers were replaced with the stainless Model 64DAO with a bobbed hammer and the S/A cocking notch removed from the hammer.

Much safer.
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Postby Gardenfit » Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:10 pm

INTERCEPTOR wrote:While instructing for Brinks it was nice to see that 80% of the older Model 10 revolvers were replaced with the stainless Model 64DAO with a bobbed hammer and the S/A cocking notch removed from the hammer.

Much safer.


Is that one of your Brinks students??? if so must of been easy for you!!
Just give them bananas when they hit the target!!!

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Dave Brown
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Postby Dave Brown » Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:45 pm

Am I the only movie fan in this forum old enough to know that an "interceptor" is also called JAFO.

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INTERCEPTOR
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Postby INTERCEPTOR » Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:24 am

Is that one of your Brinks students??? if so must of been easy for you!!
Just give them bananas when they hit the target!!!


Nope that's me on one of my better days! And Brinks staff work for peanuts not bananas :D When training police recruits my shooting buddys in EPS Officer Safety said donuts worked for years. Now the new generation of cops goes more for granola bars! :P



Am I the only movie fan in this forum old enough to know that an "interceptor" is also called JAFO.


Nope. Blue Thunder, Officer Lymongood (spelling?) I believe. Personally, I took the "INTERCEPTOR" name from the back of the endless stream of cars I modify. Perhaps it was an inside joke from Ford being played on cops everywhere. Who knows?
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Postby Grassynarrows » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:44 pm

with the Sig Sauer people are taught the slingshot rack method as it works better for the Sig.
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Re: New Smith & Wesson M & P

Postby portcullisguy » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:27 pm

Some training dies hard ... even if you're not exercising it.

Gard, I know you will appreciate this, but I was watching a video (about 2 or 3 years old) of some of your dept's lads on the immigration task force. They showed a scene of some outdoor range shooting stuff, and the ITF people (RCMP and immigration) hiding behind cover. Without going into too much detail on the tactics, I noticed one of the mounties shooting his Smith & Wesson 5946 using the grip we were told NOT to use on a semi-auto, the thumbs crossed over.

Of course, it works for the S&W, but that's about the only semi auto is will work on. As soon as I saw that, I thought to myself, "That guy must have started when they had the revolvers..."
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Re: New Smith & Wesson M & P

Postby Bald Man » Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:52 pm

I never understood that cross over thumb grip or what ever you call on revolvers. It has to be the most uncomfortable and unnatural grip ever.

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Re: New Smith & Wesson M & P

Postby VoteQuimby » Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:00 pm

Bald Man wrote:I never understood that cross over thumb grip or what ever you call on revolvers. It has to be the most uncomfortable and unnatural grip ever.


Why did they teach it? I know it's easier to cock the hammer when TARGET shooting.
Son, we live in a world that has walls and those walls need to be guarded by men with guns.


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