New Smith & Wesson M & P

Discussion for firearms and less-lethal equipment.
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INTERCEPTOR
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Postby INTERCEPTOR » Wed May 16, 2007 5:35 pm

Isn't striking the bolt release of a C7, C8 etc with the heel of your left hand (gross motor movement) the proper way? That way you have a better chance of hitting it as your hand's edge is much wider than a finger.

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C-8

Postby Sparky » Wed May 16, 2007 6:04 pm

That's the way I was taught in the Army, eject the may stick a new one in, slap the side, push the bolt assist button and continue on.
Only difference or uppdating I've recieved is to not push the bolt assist button, but slap the side and continue putting accurate controlled lead down range at bad guy.
You may not be aware of it, but I'm kinda a big deal.

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Postby VoteQuimby » Wed May 16, 2007 8:14 pm

I must be looking at the world through the eyes of a lefty. At least with a rifle. I have always shot pistols right and rifles left. Left eye is dominant. I used my trigger finger to release bolt catch (12 years ago;)
Anyway, what method were you taught with the Browning or Sig? With regards to the topic. As I mentioned earlier a co-worker was helping requalify a bunch of reg force and reserves 2 weeks ago and said they all used the slide release? This seems to be a hot topic. I spoke with a firearms instructor in BC and he teaches the slide release, calls it a slide release etc.
Son, we live in a world that has walls and those walls need to be guarded by men with guns.

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Postby Minimum Wage Warrior » Wed May 16, 2007 11:46 pm

I was taught to hit the bolt-catch to chamber a round on the C7 after inserting a fresh mag. Pulling back on the charging handle works just as well and I preferred doing that.

I would go with the overhand grasp method myself for my pistol. The most "stress shooting" I ever really did was with blanks while my section commander was screaming at me, but it seems easier to just bully the weapon into doing what you wanted.

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Postby Dave Brown » Thu May 17, 2007 3:48 pm

LOL VQ, of course its a good debate and it never gets personal, but quite frankly ... if you are cocking your revolver for every shot, you are most assuredly NOT doing any street shooting techniques. Plus, if you are reloading the revolver the correct way, your wrist never gets to an uncomfortable angle unless you were taught wrong. The revolver is held in the weak hand. leaving the strong hand free to manipulate the cartridges or speedloader into the chambers. (The biggest single advantage of the semi-automatic for police officers is that they don't require the same fine motor skills for reloading as a revolver; fine motor skills that will not exist in a real life gunfight.)

And with all due respect to our respected and highly-trained military, for most of them, the handgun is a secondary weapon. They are not using the same techniques as street officers. (They SHOULD be, but that is another issue.) One cannot use soldiers as an example of how police officers should be trained.

Using the slide stop as a slide release is still wrong. It is fine for competition shooters and target shooters but people who are getting shot at should NEVER be taught this way.

I use the Military Police as a better example. Although military, the sidearm is very often their primary weapon. You will never see them dropping the slide with the slide stop. (Or at least you won't see any of the ones I have trained over the years ...)

While I have been shooting practical competition for many years, I also recognized a long time ago the difference between what highly practiced target shooters need to do in compettition and what the average police officer needs to stay alive.

(Perhaps that is why I had been hired many times by the Canadian military to teach advanced pistol skills to their Military Police, and why I have always had such a huge amount of respect for these people who defend our country 24 hours a day around the world.)

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INTERCEPTOR
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Postby INTERCEPTOR » Thu May 17, 2007 8:03 pm

Using the slide stop as a slide release is still wrong.


Agreed. With the exception of having one arm/hand useless due to injury. Then it is good to know how it actually operates. Otherwise go with the gross motor skills, they may save your life.

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Postby Grassynarrows » Fri May 18, 2007 12:45 pm

slingshot or overhand rack method is what all ontario police are taught at OPC. Only time you use the slide release is to lock the slide back.
Be professional and methodical. Take ownership of the situation. Look, listen and understand what is really being said and you will never have to walk away from an incident wondering if you missed something. Make every contact with the public count.

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Postby SPC » Sun May 27, 2007 12:34 am

thinking of buying the M&P....hefted it at the gunstore the other day and fell in love with it. Now I just have to find someone at the range who would be willing to let me shoot a few rounds before I buy it!

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Postby portcullisguy » Mon May 28, 2007 10:59 pm

Just buy it dude. It's a great gun! I fired a friend's and will probably end up buying my own soon.
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Postby SPC » Tue May 29, 2007 10:38 pm

i'm always hesitant about investing 700+ in a gun i've never fired....call me crazy.

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Postby INTERCEPTOR » Wed May 30, 2007 1:08 am

i'm always hesitant about investing 700+ in a gun i've never fired....call me crazy.


You're CRAZY! But not stupid. 8)

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Postby VoteQuimby » Thu May 31, 2007 10:06 am

Thanks for the tips, the slide release oops...stop is working fine now, it just needed a few hundred rounds through it. There is obviously two ways to do, the S&W tech. didn't scold me for trying to use it. The M&P is a nice pistol. I got one from Gobles in London for $619 + GST. The best deal anywhere I think.
As for reloading the revolver, holding it in the left hand don't you have to twist your wrist around quite a bit to line up the speed loaders. I was an armed guard back in the early nineties. Just the way I was taught. With the exception of the reserves all of my training was with me pappy! He released the slide with the slidelock and it stuck with me then the military did it.
Just curious... the poll I quoted before was an American poll. Do any Cdn. cops here ever use that?
Son, we live in a world that has walls and those walls need to be guarded by men with guns.

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Postby Grassynarrows » Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:57 am

Not in ontario.
Be professional and methodical. Take ownership of the situation. Look, listen and understand what is really being said and you will never have to walk away from an incident wondering if you missed something. Make every contact with the public count.

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Postby Dave Brown » Fri Jun 01, 2007 5:18 pm

VQ, the middle two fingers of your left hand (if you are right handed) pass through the frame and you open the cylinder with your thumb on one side of it and the middle two fingers on the other side. Your right hand now reaches for the speedloader while the left hand cradles the revolver flat in your palm. The middle two fingers are still through the frame to stop the cylinder from rotating on you when you feed the speedloader in, and the gun sits flat in your left hand palm.

There is no twisting of the wrist. For left-handed shooters, the right thumb is used to push the cylinder open and it too stays through the frame.

The important points are that reloading a revolver is a fine motor skill and must be performed by the strong hand, and that the middle two fingers or the thumb must be used to stop the cylinder from spinning while you try to jam the speedloader in.

The sad fact is that even with intensive training, this is a difficult move to perform under stress in a real-life situation.

The biggest single advantage semi-automatics have over revolvers for police officers is that they don't require fine motor skills to reload; skills that won't be there just when you need them. Higher capacities are a "nice-to-have" but the ability to reload without fine motor skills is a "need-to-have."

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Postby VoteQuimby » Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:22 pm

Dave Brown wrote:VQ, the middle two fingers of your left hand (if you are right handed) pass through the frame and you open the cylinder with your thumb on one side of it and the middle two fingers on the other side. Your right hand now reaches for the speedloader while the left hand cradles the revolver flat in your palm. The middle two fingers are still through the frame to stop the cylinder from rotating on you when you feed the speedloader in, and the gun sits flat in your left hand palm.

There is no twisting of the wrist. For left-handed shooters, the right thumb is used to push the cylinder open and it too stays through the frame.

The important points are that reloading a revolver is a fine motor skill and must be performed by the strong hand, and that the middle two fingers or the thumb must be used to stop the cylinder from spinning while you try to jam the speedloader in.

The sad fact is that even with intensive training, this is a difficult move to perform under stress in a real-life situation.

The biggest single advantage semi-automatics have over revolvers for police officers is that they don't require fine motor skills to reload; skills that won't be there just when you need them. Higher capacities are a "nice-to-have" but the ability to reload without fine motor skills is a "need-to-have."


Let me see if I can type this out. After the last round I grasp the revolver with the left hand with the two middle fingers ready to push the cylinder through. Then right thumb presses on the release for the cylinder, the middle fingers push the cylinder out as the revolver is turned up to eject the casings. Twist the wrist around until the revolver is pointing down about a 45 degree angle and feed the next rounds in with the speed loader. That was the uncomfortable twisting part I was describing. As for cocking with left thumb... I found the time it takes to pull the trigger without the hammer cocked was about the same as cocking with the left thumb. I found I was more accurate this way. If I'm ever in Manitoba you can show me some of this;)

One question for you, I have a chance to save some money on 9mm aluminum casing rounds. They are $87/500 vs. $97/500 for brass. Any input?

The M&P is nice. I would have purchased the PX4 Storm but sadly it is prohibited. I checked on the SOCOM Beretta PX4 Storm SD .45 ACP, the barrel is 115mm. It has been listed in the US for $995. Stoeger said it won't be available in Canada until next year @approx. $2200!
Son, we live in a world that has walls and those walls need to be guarded by men with guns.


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