New Smith & Wesson M & P

Discussion for firearms and less-lethal equipment.
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mostlyharmless
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Postby mostlyharmless » Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:44 pm

Bald Man wrote:Because S&W has discontinued the DAO model 5946 (RCMP issue 9mm) and 4043 (Peel .40cal issue) to make way for the new M&P pistol line. RCMP and other services such as Peel will have to purchase and transition to a new pistol at some point.

Does anyone know whether new Depot cadets are switching or is the 5946 still being used?
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Postby Mark S » Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:14 pm

They're still using the 5946. This is all speculation at this point that the RCMP will be switching in the future.
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sticky slide

Postby VoteQuimby » Sat May 12, 2007 5:36 pm

Anyone have a M&P? I just bought one and the slide will not release unless you pull slightly back on the slide while pressing the slide release. I have heard S&W designed and named this a "slide lock" so that you can't release the slide with the slide lock button. The M&P I handled at the gun store in the States released fine. Just wondering if this is something which will work its way in or do I have to send the thing back for repairs in the first week.

Maybe this is why the Beretta won our contract? aside from the magazine ejecting during the drop test. Too bad the Storm is prohibited.
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Re: sticky slide

Postby Dave Brown » Sat May 12, 2007 10:52 pm

VoteQuimby wrote:Anyone have a M&P? I just bought one and the slide will not release unless you pull slightly back on the slide while pressing the slide release. I have heard S&W designed and named this a "slide lock" so that you can't release the slide with the slide lock button.


This is not true to the best of my knowledge.

I think it may need to be worked in a bit or maybe it was a bit of a rough casting. We have all gotten used to guns that JUST PLAIN WORK OUT OF THE BOX like Sig and Glock, and we forget makers like S&W and Walther that need some tweaking to get them functioning properly, or Berettas that have to go in for warranty repairs right out of the box.

On the other hand, one should NEVER use the slide stop to chamber a round. The ONLY function of a slide stop is to lock the slide open; never to close the slide. If you start using the slide stop to chamber a round, you are conditioning yourself to do something that might get you killed on the street. In a real encounter, under stress you lose all fine motor skills - which include the ability to even FEEL the slide stop, let alone manipulate it during a gun fight. The proper way of chambering a round is to do it the same as your emergency manipulation drills: magazine goes in, reach across the the back of the slide in an overhand grasp, pull back and let go.

Quite frankly, if one is using the slide stop to close the slide, then one has shot too much IPSC, has watched too much TV or has been trained wrong.

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Postby Mark S » Sun May 13, 2007 12:58 am

"Its a slide stop, not a slide forward!!"
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Postby VoteQuimby » Sun May 13, 2007 8:14 am

That's a good debate. However, I think the argument about fine motor skills is lost when you consider the mag release is half the size of the "slide lock" and you never hear of anyone in a fire fight not being able to release the mag? It takes just as much fine motor skills to drop the mag as hit the slide release. This is mainly taught to keep this function the same as the drill for a stoppage. If you get used to using your other hand every time you reload you will be able to clear a stoppage faster.
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Postby VoteQuimby » Sun May 13, 2007 2:34 pm

it also depends a lot on the firearm you have. A lot of handguns have safeties that will be pulled down while using the slingshot method. Then all you hear is a terrifying click instead of the kaboom;) Anyway, I believe the S&W 5906 recommends using the slide stop as a slide release. I am sure it comes down to what feels comfortable. Besides...Jack Bauer can't be wrong?
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Postby Bruce » Sun May 13, 2007 4:16 pm

Personally I agree with Dave about not using the slide stop to load the weapon. Out of curiosity, I looked up the manual for the S&W M&P. Imagine my surprise when it says on page 17 under loading:

Pull the slide to the rear, press down on the slide stop to
release the slide and allow it to carry fully forward. This strips
a cartridge from the magazine and seats it in the chamber of
the barrel. http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/other/MP_Manual.pdf

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Postby Dave Brown » Sun May 13, 2007 8:34 pm

VoteQuimby wrote:it also depends a lot on the firearm you have. A lot of handguns have safeties that will be pulled down while using the slingshot method. Then all you hear is a terrifying click instead of the kaboom;) Anyway, I believe the S&W 5906 recommends using the slide stop as a slide release. I am sure it comes down to what feels comfortable. Besides...Jack Bauer can't be wrong?


Actually, duty sidearms should NEVER have a manual safety of any kind. The only safeties should be internal, and the REAL safety is your training; keep it pointed in a safe direction and keep your finger out of the trigger guard.

I can't think of any agencies in Canada who use a sidearm with a manual safety for uniform carry.

The magazine release does not require fine motor skills. It can be manipulated in an emergency whether your thumbs have any feeling in them or not. They obviously even work with gloves on. The slide stop DOES require fine motor skills which, sadly will not be there just when you need them the most. It has nothing to do with being comfortable; it has everything to do with staying alive. With a little bit of practice, the overhand grasp pretty much becomes instinctive anyway. Plus, the overhand grasp practice can be combined with dry fire practice, and I can almost guarantee five minutes a day of this and you will be a much better shot.

The manual for the S&W is much like the manual for many other sidearms - it is designed for the consumer, not for the police officer. It is assumed that police training will be good enough to not condition someone to do it the wrong way.

While there may be some debate about the overhand grasp, versus the slingshot grasp on the back of the slide (I only teach the overhand grasp, by the way) there is no debate on the use of the slide stop to chamber a round. It is wrong, wrong, wrong.

I stick to my guns. The only people who use the slide stop to chamber a round are target shooters, IPSC shooters, people who have been watching too much TV and officers who were trained incorrectly.

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Postby VoteQuimby » Mon May 14, 2007 12:05 pm

Considering where I work I doubt if I will ever make it to the 19th. round in a shoot out let alone the first...hopefully. I was just asking regarding shooting targets in my spare time. I researched this issue a bit on the net and found a police officers forum in the States that posted a survey. It went something like this... roughly 60% used the handover-slingshot. 28% reported they used the slide stop/release, the rest used both. I would venture a guess that there are 20X the amount of police officers in the U.S. (not including military) considering they have 10X the pop. plus the higher crime rate and spend a lot more on criminal justice. AND all law enforcement officers are armed ie: park wardens, corrections, customs, court officers etc.
SO, if that survey is close to being accurate that would mean there are at least 150,000 police officers (5X Canada's total PO count) in the U.S. watching too much TV, shooting too much IPSC or whatever.
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Postby Dave Brown » Mon May 14, 2007 4:03 pm

Interesting survey VQ. "Popular" does not make it "right," of course.

Plus, I am of the opinion that on the whole, Canada trains police officers to higher skill levels than the U.S.

And it is also somewhat gun dependant. The S&W has a large slide stop that protrudes more. The Glock has a small one, set very close to the slide. If you did a survey of officers in Canada, and what they were TAUGHT to use - not what they actually DID use in day-to-day use - I think you would find almost 0% Glock users use the slide stop.

On the other hand, I would take an officer who has been taught to use the slide stop on the S&W, who has practiced it a lot and has conditioned themselves so that this becomes an automatic response in an emergency over an officer who was taught the correct way but has never tried it again after they walked out of the classroom.

(One of the problems is that the design of the S&W discourages this type of valuable practice. Because of the magazine disconnect, one cannot practice the overhand grasp followed by a dry-fire shot in a safe area without a lot of effort. The magazine must be in to pull the trigger, but an empty magazine forces the slide stop up. The best solution that I can come up with is to use a dedicated magazine just for dry-fire practice, pop off the floor plate, and remove the spring and follower. This then allows the proper practice regime. One should NEVER have live ammunition in the same room that one is practicing dry-fire drills unless it is on the shooting range, by the way.)

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Postby VoteQuimby » Tue May 15, 2007 5:47 pm

The whole "fine" vs "gross" motor skill argument was invented by Glock when the first gen Glocks hit North America. they had crappy little slide release/lock levers, and you couldn't reliably use it because it was so small, so some instructor invented the grab and release as being the best thing going, and came up with a reason for it.
If you watch any of the top shooters in the world you'll see none of them using the grab and go method, that includes David Sveginy (sp) who is the top Glock shooter. he either gets the slide going during mag insertion or he hits the lever. that's what it's for after all.
Anyway, when I was in the army they didn't teach the grab and go or slingshot method. A local instructor who helped out on a lot of reg force and reserve requalifications last weekend didn't see any of them using anything but the slide release. So... I think it's safe to say there is more than one way to do most things. And different agencies around the world all use different methods when it comes to police defence tactics, high speed prusuits, clearing buildings, searching a ship. The only thing you should all do the same is VOTE HARPER!!!!!!!!!!
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Postby Dave Brown » Tue May 15, 2007 7:26 pm

Thanks for the input VQ. Thankfully, we don't teach street officers on skills that they once taught in the army 50 years ago, what competition shooters illustrate in a video or what we saw on the "Simpsons" last week.

Good firearms instructors have been teaching the necessity for gross motor skills LONG before the Glock came along. (The best example of this is the correct way to reload a revolver under stress.)

The bottom line is not what the best, fastest or most-well trained competition shooters are using, it is what the AVERAGE STREET OFFICER needs to survive.

According to the Dave Brown rules of a gunfight, it is not the fastest shot in the world that wins a gunfight; it is not the most accurate shot in the world that wins; it is the FIRST, ACCURATE shot that most likely leads to the #1 goal of every police officer in the world: to make it home alive at the end of every shift.

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Postby VoteQuimby » Wed May 16, 2007 9:04 am

Actually you never see Chief Wiggum reload? I was trained by the CF in the 90's and I have spoken to a couple who have been trained since and they still teach the slide release method, at least to the people I have spoken to. And I have trained with revolvers...and there are a lot more steps to reloading. More fine motor skills in my opinion. Ejecting the casings, flipping your wrist over in a very uncomfortable position and then trying to line up the speed loader. Still I find I am more accurate with the 38 using the left thumb to cock between rounds. But I guess you only got 18 rounds vs. 55 now. wow!!! Anyway, I enjoy a good debate, don't take it personal or make it personal;)
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Postby VoteQuimby » Wed May 16, 2007 10:15 am

One last question Dave. Would the bolt catch on the C7 be a fine motor skill? When reloading the C7 the bolt catch or release must be depressed.
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