AR15 petition

Discussion for firearms and less-lethal equipment.

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Striker
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Re: AR15 petition

Postby Striker » Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:48 am

Longarm9 wrote:[

We also need to have a government that stops listening to ignorant boobs who know absolutely nothing about guns, crime or anything else and start listening to groups who actually know guns and have actual evidence backing what they're saying when they take consultation on firearms related laws.
but they do..they have Chiefs on their committees...oh wait.
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Longarm9
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Re: AR15 petition

Postby Longarm9 » Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:22 am

Striker wrote:
Longarm9 wrote:[

We also need to have a government that stops listening to ignorant boobs who know absolutely nothing about guns, crime or anything else and start listening to groups who actually know guns and have actual evidence backing what they're saying when they take consultation on firearms related laws.
but they do..they have Chiefs on their committees...oh wait.
yeah lol

How about some executives from conservation and sports shooting groups? Gun collectors? How about the mountains of evidence that gun control laws are basically useless and do nothing to promote public safety, and the mountains of evidence that private gun ownership actually has a positive effect on society.

The discussion in Canada always so one sided and driven by hysterical, ignorant fear mongering. One needs only to look at the list of prohibited firearms, weapons and devices to see that.

One example, the SVD Dragunov. Totally different design from the AK, designed by a different person, designed for a completely different purpose, chambered in a totally different cartridge, has zero interchangeable parts with an AK, has only ever been semi-automatic - somehow magically classified as an "AK Variant" because it bears a vague resemblance to an AK...if you squint...from a distance...
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Re: AR15 petition

Postby CBK » Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:51 am

Longarm9 wrote: One example, the SVD Dragunov. Totally different design from the AK, designed by a different person, designed for a completely different purpose, chambered in a totally different cartridge, has zero interchangeable parts with an AK, has only ever been semi-automatic - somehow magically classified as an "AK Variant" because it bears a vague resemblance to an AK...if you squint...from a distance...
If it has a scope, the media calls it a "High Powered Hunting Rifle" AND that one "looks like and AK" (barely) so that = "Assault Rifle". That thing must be super dangerous. :roll:

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Longarm9
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Re: AR15 petition

Postby Longarm9 » Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:12 pm

CBK wrote:
Longarm9 wrote: One example, the SVD Dragunov. Totally different design from the AK, designed by a different person, designed for a completely different purpose, chambered in a totally different cartridge, has zero interchangeable parts with an AK, has only ever been semi-automatic - somehow magically classified as an "AK Variant" because it bears a vague resemblance to an AK...if you squint...from a distance...
If it has a scope, the media calls it a "High Powered Hunting Rifle" AND that one "looks like and AK" (barely) so that = "Assault Rifle". That thing must be super dangerous. :roll:
Oh for sure, WAY more dangerous than any other 30 caliber self loading rifle, like say an M14 or an M1 Garand, or an SKS, or an SVD40, or... :sniper:
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Re: AR15 petition

Postby DJM » Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:04 pm

Striker wrote:what surprises me is..Ontario which is the liberal center of the universe..has the most votes of any province.
I met a pro gun liberal once. He was hardcore pro gun too. If only our PM was actually one of those.

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Re: AR15 petition

Postby DJM » Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:14 pm

I was believe it or not anti gun and hugely opposed firearms in private hands but then I actually did some research into the pro gun stance and now I have 4 guns and an RPAL and love going to the range. people seem to thing if we lighten up on gun law we will end up with crazy amounts of shootings like the US. I dont believe that for a minute. First of all the only smart thing which I believe should stand in canadian firearms laws is licensing. Ìt will weed out those not of sound mind to have a firearm. I also remeber a saying i was told by a fellow pupil in my martial arts classes is that you appreciate something you have to work hard for alot more vs just being given it. Im pretty sure the guy upset at some other person enough to kill them with a firearm will calm down after having to do 2 courses and fill out a huge application and wait six months to get a rifle.

I also remember something I was told by my boss once is that if you were pissed off at someone and paused that scenario and continued the same situation tomorrow you wouldnt act the same.

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Re: AR15 petition

Postby Hoodwinkle » Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:41 pm

DJM wrote:I dont believe that for a minute. First of all the only smart thing which I believe should stand in canadian firearms laws is licensing. Ìt will weed out those not of sound mind to have a firearm. I also remeber a saying i was told by a fellow pupil in my martial arts classes is that you appreciate something you have to work hard for alot more vs just being given it. Im pretty sure the guy upset at some other person enough to kill them with a firearm will calm down after having to do 2 courses and fill out a huge application and wait six months to get a rifle.
Many if not most of anti-gunners believe those "sane" people who pass licencing requirements "could" become one of those "not of sound mind" types down the road...and when that happens, they will have unfettered access to firearms to commit murderous rampages. Best we disarm everyone (those who are willing I add) for our own good. And then when all the firearms are scrapped, deactivated or displayed in museums, gun violence should all but disappear?? Except, we live right next door to the good ole US of Eh where firearms are plentiful and roughly 50% of the illegal firearms in Canada are smuggled from.

That said, the current Canadian system is far from perfect but, is probably a balanced compromise. It could be tightened in some aspects and relaxed in others in my opinion.

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Re: AR15 petition

Postby Longarm9 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:55 am

DJM wrote:.... First of all the only smart thing which I believe should stand in Canadian firearms laws is licensing. Ìt will weed out those not of sound mind to have a firearm...
I wholeheartedly agree with this. Even in the USA where the right to keep and bear arms is explicitly enshrined in the constitution, it has long been established that felons and those who are mentally insane or incapable are not permitted to possess firearms, and this is entirely sensible and reasonable. The easiest, most efficient way to achieve this is with a licensing system. Now, I think our licensing system has many flaws which could be fixed, and obviously a licensing system does little to nothing to prevent criminals from acquiring guns, but the basic idea makes sense.

Having said that, the idea that if we ban certain guns or ban all guns we will somehow be safer as a society is ineffable stupidity. Banning guns does nothing except disarm decent, law abiding people against criminals who remain armed, or against corrupt governments run amok. Unfortunately there are many people, especially in our country, who simply refuse to believe that our government could ever become tyrannical and need to be put down, but history proves them wrong. 262 million people murdered by their own governments in the 20th century alone, and every single one of those genocides was preceded by draconian gun control systems, many of which were and are chillingly similar to our own.

Even if all guns were to suddenly vanish from the earth tomorrow, it would not change the basic fundamental seed of corruption that lives in the heart of every human being. What it would do is remove the equalizing force that might possibly allow a 75 year old grandfather to defend himself against a 20 year old thug intent on robbing and murdering him, or the force that permitted a ragtag group of colonists to overthrow the corrupt rule of the biggest empire in the history of mankind.
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Re: AR15 petition

Postby Bitterman » Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:24 pm

There are more than enough laws on the books to deal with the criminal use of firearms. 'Trouble is that from what I've seen these laws aren't being applied severely enough.
I agree with competency based licensing... In untrained hands a firearm can be a dangerous tool. Ensuring that those who wish to own/uuse firearms have at minimum a basic grasp of gun safety is important. 'Same could be said for lots of other stuff... I mean any idiot can walk into a tool store and buy a chainsaw.
As far as preventing the mentally ill from obtaining guns by denying them licenses... Futile.
There will always be crazy people and people who go crazy.
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Re: AR15 petition

Postby Striker » Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:37 pm

Between the observations of the instructor giving the firearms safety course and the background check done by the police..that should be more than enough to weed out the "obviously crazy" people from receiving a PAL.
I'm as pro gun and pro ccw as you can get..but I would have zero problem if the gov't made an actuall firearms safety course that included theory and practical training mandatory.

I don't know what the course is like now as I took mine a very long time ago..but the instructor I had went full retard and was subsequently "relieved of his duties"..
He was teaching that a firearms owner MUST carry a 36" long wooden dowel with him anytime he was in possession of a long gun to enable himself to verify the barrel on his firearm or any firearm he may come into possession of..had an unobstructed barrel. :dubious: :crazy:
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Re: AR15 petition

Postby Bitterman » Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:28 pm

Striker wrote: I don't know what the course is like now as I took mine a very long time ago..but the instructor I had went full retard and was subsequently "relieved of his duties"..
He was teaching that a firearms owner MUST carry a 36" long wooden dowel with him anytime he was in possession of a long gun to enable himself to verify the barrel on his firearm or any firearm he may come into possession of..had an unobstructed barrel. :dubious: :crazy:

Did he specify what kind of wood said dowel must be made of...?
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Re: AR15 petition

Postby Longarm9 » Tue Feb 02, 2016 1:36 pm

Striker wrote:He was teaching that a firearms owner MUST carry a 36" long wooden dowel with him anytime he was in possession of a long gun to enable himself to verify the barrel on his firearm or any firearm he may come into possession of..had an unobstructed barrel. :dubious: :crazy:
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Re: AR15 petition

Postby gotchya » Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:26 pm

Longarm9 wrote:
Having said that, the idea that if we ban certain guns or ban all guns we will somehow be safer as a society is ineffable stupidity. Banning guns does nothing except disarm decent, law abiding people against criminals who remain armed, or against corrupt governments run amok. Unfortunately there are many people, especially in our country, who simply refuse to believe that our government could ever become tyrannical and need to be put down, but history proves them wrong. 262 million people murdered by their own governments in the 20th century alone, and every single one of those genocides was preceded by draconian gun control systems, many of which were and are chillingly similar to our own.

Even if all guns were to suddenly vanish from the earth tomorrow, it would not change the basic fundamental seed of corruption that lives in the heart of every human being. What it would do is remove the equalizing force that might possibly allow a 75 year old grandfather to defend himself against a 20 year old thug intent on robbing and murdering him, or the force that permitted a ragtag group of colonists to overthrow the corrupt rule of the biggest empire in the history of mankind.
I think your belief that an armed citizenry will keep the government in check is a little detached from reality.

First most genocides are perpetrated by armed militias with tanks, guns, bombs, someone with a shotgun likely will not be much an impediment.

I mean, I hear many who say that the Holocaust would have been stopped if Jews were armed, it sounds intriguing, until you realize the Red Army lost how many soldiers attempting to take back Berlin and they were armed with tanks, bombers, and bombs. Are you suggesting we should arm citizenry accordingly?

As for the discussions about the American Revolution and an armed citizenry. If you want to exercise your right to bear arms to have a musket the I'd be all for that. But the guns and weapons that are on the market today are a lot more deadly than any gun around during the American Revolution.

Anecdotally, look at the number of mass shootings in the United States, then look at the number of mass shootings that happen behind secure areas of airports, which I hazard to guess is zero. Consider the number of people who travel daily which is likely in the millions compare that number to a city with a similar population. Could it be that people not having guns prevents crime :swords?

Not to mention that this discussion doesn't include the likelihood of being killed/dieing in a house with a gun versus one without.
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Re: AR15 petition

Postby bigbadjoe108 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:35 am

gotchya wrote:

First most genocides are perpetrated by armed militias with tanks, guns, bombs, someone with a shotgun likely will not be much an impediment.

I mean, I hear many who say that the Holocaust would have been stopped if Jews were armed, it sounds intriguing, until you realize the Red Army lost how many soldiers attempting to take back Berlin and they were armed with tanks, bombers, and bombs. Are you suggesting we should arm citizenry accordingly?

As for the discussions about the American Revolution and an armed citizenry. If you want to exercise your right to bear arms to have a musket the I'd be all for that. But the guns and weapons that are on the market today are a lot more deadly than any gun around during the American Revolution.

Anecdotally, look at the number of mass shootings in the United States, then look at the number of mass shootings that happen behind secure areas of airports, which I hazard to guess is zero. Consider the number of people who travel daily which is likely in the millions compare that number to a city with a similar population. Could it be that people not having guns prevents crime :swords?

Not to mention that this discussion doesn't include the likelihood of being killed/dieing in a house with a gun versus one without.
I think that you're talking security, and he's talking freedom. Sure an airport is relatively secure, but I would hate to live in one...

As for a shotgun not being much of a deterrent, I would argue, very strongly, otherwise. Regardless of what the tyrants have, a potential victim with a shotgun is FAR more dangerous than one holding a protest sign.

And finally, saying the right to bear arms is only for muskets is like saying the right to free speech is only applicable to street corners and newspapers.
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Re: AR15 petition

Postby gotchya » Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:34 am

bigbadjoe108 wrote:
As for a shotgun not being much of a deterrent, I would argue, very strongly, otherwise. Regardless of what the tyrants have, a potential victim with a shotgun is FAR more dangerous than one holding a protest sign.

And finally, saying the right to bear arms is only for muskets is like saying the right to free speech is only applicable to street corners and newspapers.
So are you suggesting that people should have weapons in every form they want? Should the average citizens be permitted to drive a tank, operate an F16, and maintain a nuclear arsenal just in case the government becomes tyrannical.

As for your argument that the shotgun is more effective, if you look at the countries where dictatorships have recently been faulted the person in the middle of the square has been far more effective at toppling governments that shotguns, see Egypt, and other countries in the Arab spring.
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