CBSA Firearms

Discussion for firearms and less-lethal equipment.

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Homer
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Re: CBSA Firearms

Postby Homer » Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:43 pm

HiPowered wrote: Dave, I have some questions on what you've posted here. I know you say that every agency properly trains their members on their pistol, but I have to ask - do you mean they're properly trained on the basics of marksmanship, or do you include more advanced parts of firearms training like movement, use of cover, and shooting from common scenarios (inside a vehicle, behind a desk, from a chair, from the ground, etc)?
Admittedly I'm not Dave (and have less than 1% of his experience) - but as I understand it, every armed agency, force or corporation will train their staff in the way they want firearms used. Even among police forces in one province the training varies based on local requirements. You will not get advanced marksmanship, but you will get practical applied use of force training. You can argue whether everyone gets 'enough' training, but you MUST follow the procedures used by your employer. As Dave and others have indicated, focus on getting hired then follow the training you receive.
HiPowered wrote:I'm also curious about your position on using a different personal firearm for practise (and fun) at home. Do you have concerns about building contrary muscle memory on controls? I wouldn't want to spend most of my time practising with a 1911 and end up stroking a non-existent safety during my draw with my Glock. Fortunately with DAO service pistols it's less of an issue for duty than an DA or SAO, but I'd still rather train with a pistol that's configured in the same way as my duty pistol.
See above. Once you are trained by your employer, trigger time is trigger time. Practice what you have been taught enough and the gun you are holding becomes almost irrelevant. If you are worried about DA, DAO and SA differences, only practice the draw and present with your duty firearm or something close. Once the manual safety is off (if one exists), you just pull the trigger and reload as required. Most modern handguns have the mag release in the same location, so there is not much to worry about there.

If, after getting hired, you decide you like your duty firearm then you buy your own for playing at the range.
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Re: CBSA Firearms

Postby Dave Brown » Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:47 am

Yes, the various agencies will train recruits on the skills they feel they will need.

I am not going to make value judgments about the quality of the training, because I have been in this business a long time, and there have been HUGE strides forward in pistol training in the past 15 years. The worst training one could receive today is still a thousand times better than the best that one could get 20 years ago.

Without going into too much detail, marksmanship is still an important component of training. Even though the standard is more towards "combat accuracy" and stopping the threat in the most efficient and effective way possible in order to protect the safety of the officer, the public and even perhaps the assailant, but marksmanship is still needed. This is why officers may rarely shoot as far as 20 meters, but most qualification tests still require accuracy at that range.

In fact, a properly designed course-of-fire should have enough points that need to be earned at the 15 and 20 meter line that an officer can fail if they don't have basic marksmanship skills. At 3 and 7, one can often fake it; at 20, you can't.

As for matching firearms, if one chooses to buy their own pistol and using it for practice and competition, they should buy one they like to shoot, not one that necessarily matches what their agency issues. Trigger time truly IS trigger time. If one loves 1911s and likes the feel of it in their hand and the look of it in their vault ... go for it. If one is issued a Glock or Sig, and they like it, then it makes sense to own a top quality pistol like a Glock or Sig. (If the agency issues .40, I would always suggest 9mm instead; easier on the gun; cheaper to shoot.)

If an agency issues a Beretta, then it makes sense to get a Glock or another quality make.

If you do enough shooting, and practice the skills on your issue firearm exactly as you are taught by your agency trainers, you will - believe it or not - not try to sweep off a 1911 safety when handling a Glock.

Here's a secret tip: the best practice one can ever do is LOTS of dry-fire practice on the range. Get a feel for EXACTLY where the sights were aligned with each other at the moment the hammer falls. Then it doesn't matter if it is 5 pounds, 10 pounds or 15 pounds on the pull; it is the instant the hammer falls that is important.

One caveat. If one shoots a very high thumb position on a 1911, where the thumb is resting on top of the safety, you will ride the slide stop on a Glock. If you find your duty sidearm is not locking back on an empty mag, check your mag spring first, and your thumb position second.

And, please ... if you ride the safety on a 1911, do not get one of those goofy mudflap thumb guards. They are about as useless as heat shields and bayonet lugs on an 870.

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Re: CBSA Firearms

Postby Striker » Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:27 am

Dave Brown wrote: They are about as useless as heat shields and bayonet lugs on an 870.
obviously you've never been attacked by a rabid mallard in your duck blind at 5am...
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Re: CBSA Firearms

Postby HiPowered » Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:55 pm

Dave Brown wrote:Yes, the various agencies will train recruits on the skills they feel they will need.

I am not going to make value judgments about the quality of the training, because I have been in this business a long time, and there have been HUGE strides forward in pistol training in the past 15 years. The worst training one could receive today is still a thousand times better than the best that one could get 20 years ago.

Without going into too much detail, marksmanship is still an important component of training. Even though the standard is more towards "combat accuracy" and stopping the threat in the most efficient and effective way possible in order to protect the safety of the officer, the public and even perhaps the assailant, but marksmanship is still needed. This is why officers may rarely shoot as far as 20 meters, but most qualification tests still require accuracy at that range.

In fact, a properly designed course-of-fire should have enough points that need to be earned at the 15 and 20 meter line that an officer can fail if they don't have basic marksmanship skills. At 3 and 7, one can often fake it; at 20, you can't.

As for matching firearms, if one chooses to buy their own pistol and using it for practice and competition, they should buy one they like to shoot, not one that necessarily matches what their agency issues. Trigger time truly IS trigger time. If one loves 1911s and likes the feel of it in their hand and the look of it in their vault ... go for it. If one is issued a Glock or Sig, and they like it, then it makes sense to own a top quality pistol like a Glock or Sig. (If the agency issues .40, I would always suggest 9mm instead; easier on the gun; cheaper to shoot.)

If an agency issues a Beretta, then it makes sense to get a Glock or another quality make.

If you do enough shooting, and practice the skills on your issue firearm exactly as you are taught by your agency trainers, you will - believe it or not - not try to sweep off a 1911 safety when handling a Glock.

Here's a secret tip: the best practice one can ever do is LOTS of dry-fire practice on the range. Get a feel for EXACTLY where the sights were aligned with each other at the moment the hammer falls. Then it doesn't matter if it is 5 pounds, 10 pounds or 15 pounds on the pull; it is the instant the hammer falls that is important.

One caveat. If one shoots a very high thumb position on a 1911, where the thumb is resting on top of the safety, you will ride the slide stop on a Glock. If you find your duty sidearm is not locking back on an empty mag, check your mag spring first, and your thumb position second.

And, please ... if you ride the safety on a 1911, do not get one of those goofy mudflap thumb guards. They are about as useless as heat shields and bayonet lugs on an 870.
Thanks for the reply, Dave. It occurred to me after reading your post that while I intended to start a conversation on firearms training, the public part of the forum probably wasn't the place to do it. I agree that we're miles ahead of where we were decades ago, but I was hoping to discuss a bit more on where we are and where we're going. Maybe we should take this into the LEO subforum for safety's sake?

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Re: CBSA Firearms

Postby El Conejo » Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:21 pm

Dave Brown wrote:If an agency issues a Beretta, then it makes sense to get a Glock or another quality make.
Zing!!!! :smirk:

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Re: CBSA Firearms

Postby shootermcgavin » Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:21 pm

Interesting thread to follow especially as a civilian. Apparently, CBSA carry side arms but possibly not at work. We(the general public) should not be informed as to what kind of side arm or caliber it is in because that is a security risk. Buying the same sidearm as they are issued to train with is a good idea but not really cause you will never get to shoot it since it stays in a box most of the time. If you buy something else then you run the risk of not remembering how to use your duty gun because your muscles may forget but that may be a secret too. I did definitely learn that they have black rubber gloves(Nitrile) issued to them and that Mallards could be damn dangerous at 5am. :dropjaw:
Last edited by shootermcgavin on Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CBSA Firearms

Postby GoodWitness » Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:17 pm

shootermcgavin wrote:Interesting thread to follow especially as a civilian. Apparently, CBSA carry side arms but possibly not at work. We(the general public) should not be informed as to what kind of side arm or caliber it is in because that is a security risk. Buying the same sidearm as they are issued to train with is a good idea but not really cause you will never get to shoot it since it stays in a box most of the time. If you buy something else then you run the risk of not remembering how to use your duty gun because your muscles may forget but that may be a secret too. I did definitely learn that they have black rubber gloves(Nitrile) issued to them and that Mallards could be damn dangerous at 5am. :dropjaw:
Yes, mallards might be dangerous but not rabid.Being birds and all. (That's not a secret, but appears to be a little known fact. :smirk: )

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Re: CBSA Firearms

Postby shootermcgavin » Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:28 am

To answer the OP's original question-Beretta PX4 Storm in 9mm. It is listed on their own website as to what the officers are equipped with so obviously this topic is not taboo. I can tell you one thing, If I were in any way inclined to apply to the CBSA, I think I would at least visit the website to gain a little info.
I would also like at this time to apologize to the federal governing body "Ducks Unlimited Canada" for possibly disclosing any security related operational characteristics pertaining to the aforementioned Mallard Duck. ;)

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Re: CBSA Firearms

Postby Bitterman » Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:30 pm

shootermcgavin wrote: We(the general public) should not be informed as to what kind of side arm or caliber it is in because that is a security risk. :dropjaw:

I think That's a little paranoid... Lol

The few times I've been sent to secondary inspection (if that's what it's called) because I had firearms with me it's always turned into a show and tell session and gab-fest about guns, shooting etc.
Its no big deal...

A bad guy looking to cause trouble with CBSA would do better knowing what length baton they carried and/or what type of OC (steam or foam) they have.
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Re: CBSA Firearms

Postby portcullisguy » Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:52 pm

Dave Brown wrote: One caveat. If one shoots a very high thumb position on a 1911, where the thumb is resting on top of the safety, you will ride the slide stop on a Glock. If you find your duty sidearm is not locking back on an empty mag, check your mag spring first, and your thumb position second.
This is a common problem for me. I have large hands, and yet even with the largest grip on the PX4 my comfortable shooting grip has my thumb resting on the slide stop. It's a terrible habit, I know. It's caused me to do stoppage drills when in fact the pistol was just empty.
And, please ... if you ride the safety on a 1911, do not get one of those goofy mudflap thumb guards. They are about as useless as heat shields and bayonet lugs on an 870.
I LOVE my useless heat shield on my Mossberg 500!
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Re: CBSA Firearms

Postby Dave Brown » Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:35 am

portcullisguy wrote:
Dave Brown wrote: One caveat. If one shoots a very high thumb position on a 1911, where the thumb is resting on top of the safety, you will ride the slide stop on a Glock. If you find your duty sidearm is not locking back on an empty mag, check your mag spring first, and your thumb position second.
This is a common problem for me. I have large hands, and yet even with the largest grip on the PX4 my comfortable shooting grip has my thumb resting on the slide stop. It's a terrible habit, I know. It's caused me to do stoppage drills when in fact the pistol was just empty.
Try placing your right thumb on top of the back of your left thumb. This is what cleared it for me.

I am a BIG fan of the high thumb position. In back-to-back tests many years ago with a 1911, there was an instant and noticeable reduction in felt recoil. I ride the top of the cylinder release on revolvers and I may even dump my Hogue AR grip because I try to cram two fingers into the top finger groove.

As for your heat shield ... each to his own, brother.

But I promise not to laugh at your heatshield. The bayonet lug, on the other hand ...

:D :D :D

Very few people pour as many rounds down a shotgun as I do in an average training day and I have never used a heat shield.

(Mind you, I am the instructor. :D But I do normally wear gloves in case I need to grab a barrel in a hurry.)

If you are doing your shooting and speedloading correctly, one should never need to touch the barrel. If you use a strong-hand speedload (which is what I advocate for the average person) then your support-hand slides down the pump and grips the shotgun at its balance point on the receiver. Holding the shotgun sideways gives you the biggest target to drop a new shell into the ejection port and you never even get close to the barrel.

Image

While some teach the support-hand reload, I have found that unless one is a highly experienced combat shooter (a clownshoes operative, for example) who practices hours a month, the loss of fine motor skills in your support hand increases the likelihood of dropping a shell on the ground instead of hitting the port. Back-to-back tests with electronic range timers have also proven that it is just as fast to break your shooting grip, drop the shell in the port with your strong hand and re-establish your grip while bringing it back up to your shoulder than it is to keep your grip and tilt it sideways to feed the shell in with your support hand.

If you have ever seen the really good Magpul Dynamics shotgun video, this is very clear if you watch it close. The one student who insists on doing it with the strong hand is noticeably faster than the other students, and never drops a shell on the ground like the others do from time to time.

So, unless your name is Travis Haley or Chris Costa, this is the way I recommend.

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Re: CBSA Firearms

Postby Bitterman » Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:09 pm

There be faster shotgun loading methods..
Probably not "combat" appropriate, but very quick...
They require specialized shell caddy's.. I use the "carbon arms"
Pinwheel system and can reload 8 rounds in about 5 seconds.

Rather than feed shells into the mag one at a time it involves grabbing two shells stacked end on end, guiding one shell into the loading gate and pushing it home with the second shell.
So basically you load two rounds in one motion...
I can manage this strong and weak hand pretty well. For strong hand I put the butt stock up onto my strong shoulder, rotate the gun slightly outboard and feed the mag with the right hand from the belt.
For weak hand just flip the gun up side down tucking the butt between your elbow and hip and feed the shells with the left hand.. you're firing hand stays on the grip... just watch your trigger finger.
With enough practice you can even load four rounds at once...

Like I said... Probably not ideal for street use, but it dominates the competition world.
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Re: CBSA Firearms

Postby Dave Brown » Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:08 am

I agree there are faster ways to reload more shells, and some of the three-gunners are some of the fastest I have ever seen.

As you pointed out though, that is competition. My perspective is from the street where the threat isn't really going to be impressed at how fast one can empty a whole caddy into the mag tube at one go. The idea is that you need ONE more round to solve the problem, and you need to do this in the simplest way possible with the least likelihood of dropping the round while loading from a pocket.

The exercise always starts from the 'click' of an empty chamber because in the real world, one will never know they are out of ammo until the shotgun goes click. (Ironically, many people report they never heard the bangs but they clearly heard the click.)

One of the big differences between competition and real-life is that it is frowned upon to run the gun dry in competition, but one will ALWAYS run the gun dry in the real world. That's why the vast majority of pistol reloads in tactical training are slide-back reloads, and this is why I emphasize the importance of dry-fire training because this also reinforces that emergency (slide-back) reload.

In shotgun training, I am not working with competition shooters; I am working with non-shooters, many of whom have never fired a pump shotgun before in their lives. By the end of the day, they are shooting my patented five-in-five drill in close to five seconds. (5 rounds on 5 bowling pins in 5 seconds)

I suppose it should more correctly be called my "five-in-five-on-five-at-five" drill but I am much too lazy to say all that. You start with five bowling pins on a table at five meters; four rounds in the gun, and one in the pocket. Shotgun is chambered, safety on. Starting from low ready, you have five seconds to shoot all five pins off the table. Nearly every skill is tested in this drill, including acquiring the sight from low ready, pumping, multiple targets and speedloading. Weak-hand reloads almost never work here, especially with the pressure of that range timer counting down the seconds!

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Re: CBSA Firearms

Postby Bitterman » Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:15 pm

The difference between competition and combat IS something that needs to be emphasized for some...
Many of the guys I compete with who work as LE often run similar gear in competition as they do when working... I suppose they do this to mitigate operational errors when under stress in a "real life" confrontation.
I've had this type of thing happen.. Although with no meaningful consequences... After a few months of using a G17 exclusively I switched to my 1911...
Shooting an ipsc match I draw. .. and then stand there sights on target wondering why all of a sudden I have a pistol with a 900lb trigger... Takes me a second or two to realize.... "oh... thumb safety".
Had that been a gun fight... id be deaded. Lol.

I'm not in the gun fighting business but know enough to agree that the simplest, gross motor skill methods are best when it comes to street use of any weapon...
I will however continue to look for any possible means to shave
a fraction of a second off my reloads while dazzling on the range...
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Re: CBSA Firearms

Postby Dave Brown » Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:35 pm

Bitterman wrote:I'm not in the gun fighting business but know enough to agree that the simplest, gross motor skill methods are best when it comes to street use of any weapon...
Yup, and I will continue to advocate for them.

Bitterman wrote:I will however continue to look for any possible means to shave
a fraction of a second off my reloads while dazzling on the range...
Damn! That's almost poetic, my friend.

Well said.


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