From the Book of Dave Brown

Discussion for firearms and less-lethal equipment.

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Dave Brown
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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby Dave Brown » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:37 am

Not all Chinese-made firearms products are reverse engineered. They have made remarkable progress in design and manufacture. Their quality improves with each version.

However, I was around when Norinco first hit the Canadian market in the early 80s. Their first product was a copy of the M14 rifle. The M14 was not even around when China ceased to be an ally of the U.S. shortly after the Second World War, so the original design was copied from rifles pried from the hands of U.S. soldiers who died in Vietnam, ten thousand miles from home.

Yes, I am barking at trains that have long left the station, but China has weak copyright laws, non-existent environmental protection standards and almost no workplace health and safety laws. They are killing their own workers; they are killing our planet ... and we have now abdicated all our manufacturing capacity to China. We have put all our neighbors out of work to save a few cents at Walmart. World War Three is already over. We lost.

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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby HiPowered » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:30 am

I wouldn't go so far as saying that we've lost anything. Foreign relations are more complex than that, and the Chinese have plenty of troubles that their state controlled media can barely hide. They're very skilled at projecting success but they aren't as stable as they pretend to be.

My post was just a (hopefully) informative reply about the 1911. A lot of Norinco's other products have been reverse engineered and I absolutely agree that their guns are manufactured as a part of an absolutely abominable industrial complex. But so are all of our cell phones, most TV's and almost every computer component. I vote with my dollar most times but I also accept the reality we live in - its impossible to live a modern life without supporting the Chinese economy. We just have to manage it best we can. And for some people that means no Norinco - as you said, to each their own. I certainly agree with your points about their terrible system.

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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby Longarm9 » Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:16 am

Sorry to resurrect a somewhat old thread, but I thought this was best posted here. I've been a bad boy:
Image
Bought for $300 from a fellow officer. Now to figure out how to break it to the wife.... :ponder: :wounded: :angel:
Hopefully the fact that I've put my Ruger Vaquero up for sale will soften the blow lol
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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby Dave Brown » Sat Aug 29, 2015 2:50 pm

:D :D :D

I approve. I know that one well. It was the base for one of my custom David Brown Shotguns. I called it the DB5, in honor of the designer of the Aston Martin (also called David Brown) and of course James Bond who drove one.

If you want some tips on how to get it working flawlessly, check out this thread for some tips. But in reality, there is not much you have to do to get a great shooting shotgun. Polish the chamber (important) so it will shoot cheap low-brass shells without them sticking in the chamber; maybe replace the mag spring with a Wolf spring if you ever have feed problems with the 2nd or 3rd round out of a full magazine tube; and PLEASE, for the love of God, take that stupid breacher choke tube off and replace it with your choice of Rem chokes. That's about it.

If you read last year's December issue, I reviewed many of the stock choices for the 870 and tested them all in head-to-head speed and accuracy tests. The best, fastest and more comfortable stock to shoot was still the factory full-stock. But if you need something shorter than factory, I also had good results with the Urbino stock (that now resides on my personal bear gun for when I am in polar bear country.) TPS is also researching the AR stock adapter on an 870. It won't make it better, but it will be able to fit the single rack they use in their cruisers, so if an officer is qualified on carbines, they carry that, and if qualified on shotguns, it fits in the same rack.

Personally, I would prefer a double-rack like the RCMP may be going to, but that's just me. I think that was DaveBrown-ism #3: "The best way to win a gunfight is overwhelming firepower. Bring lots of guns. Bring lots of friends with guns. Bring lots of friends with lots of guns. The best gunfight in the world is the one that never happens in the first place."

While others have commented in the past that a handgun is only useful to fight your way to a shotgun, and a shotgun is only useful to fight your way to a rifle, I am also a great believer is DaveBrown-ism #1: "The best gun in the world is the one you have in your hand when you need it the most."

Other than those tips above, shoot 1000 rounds through that shotgun before you even think of adding anything else. Because DaveBrown's number ONE law of tactical shotguns says, "The more you may need a shotgun to save someone's life in a hurry, the less crap it should have hanging off it."

But, please, take off that breacher choke. Even the folks who breach for a living don't use them.

:D :D :D

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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby Longarm9 » Sun Aug 30, 2015 12:26 am

But Dave, that breacher choke is at least LCF+100! :P

I don't plan on adding anything to it at the moment. The only thing I would likely add would be a weapon light of some sort, but that will be a little ways down the road probably. This shotgun seems about as close to tactical perfection as I can get right now. I really like the ghost ring sights. They seem quite fast for target acquisition, and I think, although not sure, that the white dot in the front post glows.

I figured you'd approve heh. The opportunity literally fell in my lap last night. A buddy was selling the gun, and frankly at that price I just couldn't say no. It even came with a nice trigger lock, 2 shot shells and a brand new soft case.

The only thing that I think might make it better is if the barrel was 14 inches instead of 18, but that's not a huge deal. I figure it gets me an extra round or two in the mag tube which is just fine.

I'll youtube how to polish the chamber :)
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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby Dave Brown » Sun Aug 30, 2015 1:45 am

Chuck a wood dowel in your portable drill and wrap 0000 steel wool around the end so that it fits very tight into the chamber. Run it in and out of the chamber for about 3 to 5 minutes, until you feel the chamber getting warm. Keep it moving in and out as it turns - much like they used to hone cylinders back in the day. If the steel wool goes in too easy, just add more. You are polishing the first inch, but there is nothing wrong with going right to the end and into the forcing cone a bit.

Every 870 made in the last ten years will need this simple step.

Even then, avoid certain brands of cheap bulk ammo. I have had bad luck with Federal, but the Challenger shotshells work great.

If you get real ambitious and you are good with simple hand tools, find a very fine sharpening stone and hone the end of the left side (viewed from the top) action bar. It mates with the front face of the pump release, and lightly polishing these two parts will allow the action to open a tiny bit faster if you are starting the pump just as the trigger is pulled. This trick is really only necessary for the very fastest 870 shooters out there. The trick is to polish the two mating surfaces but not to change the angle or take any metal off.

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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby Longarm9 » Mon Aug 31, 2015 6:34 am

Thanks for the tip, Dave! I just picked up an 18V hand drill recently, so I should be able to tee that up no problem.

Just did the chamber polish, and WOW does it ever make a visible difference in the chamber. You don't notice how rough the machining is at first, but comparing to the polished surface it looks quite different.
Last edited by Longarm9 on Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby A.T.R. » Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:52 am

I had an armorer do what Dave has suggested.
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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby Longarm9 » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:40 am

Image
Some eye candy for the shotgun lovers out there :)
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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby Homer » Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:05 am

Longarm9 wrote:Image
Some eye candy for the shotgun lovers out there :)
That looks just like mine. I gave a buddy of mine an old laptop, and he insisted on paying me with the Model 12. Best deal I ever made. :D

Still need a 1911 though.
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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby Longarm9 » Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:12 pm

Homer wrote:That looks just like mine. I gave a buddy of mine an old laptop, and he insisted on paying me with the Model 12. Best deal I ever made. :D

Still need a 1911 though.
It's a sweet shotgun. Have you slam fired it yet? hehe

Technically, that's not a 1911, it's actually a Star Model B, which is a Spanish semi-clone of the 1911 with a few mechanical differences and chambered in 9mm. They were made during the war and provided to Nazi Germany for use by rear-echelon and police units. Most of the examples in Canada, including mine were captured by the Russians and re-arsenaled before being cosmolined and stored. I paid $300 for it on sale. Great little pistol. It's extremely accurate, but it has a few quirks; because it was designed originally for the 9mm largo, which is a Spanish cartridge that is about 3mm longer than 9mm, and was designed to fire steel cased ammo, it tends to jam a lot in its original configuration. However, by putting a spacer in the back of the magazine and using a Norinco 9mm Tokarev follower and spring, you can fit 9 rounds in the mag instead of 8 and it totally fixes the stoppage issues. I used a popsicle stick soaked in gun oil as a spacer lol.
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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby HiPowered » Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:39 pm

Haha, nice trick with the Star. We had a few converted magazines kicking around that seemed to work alright with them, but of course they're extra $$.

To contribute to the thread, my bird gun (and lately, my 3-gun competition gun) is an 870 Wingmaster from the early 60's. My grandma gave it to my grandpa as an anniversary gift, and the only things I've changed on it was an 18.5" Police barrel and a set of Hogue stocks because the original Wingmaster stocks were destroyed by decades of hunting and farm use. It's slick as hell, fast to run and impeccably reliable. Well, it's impeccably reliable now. Now that I've had to deal with the one design flaw that I've found in the 870. Their stupid double riveted ejector. I realize that at the time it probably was a reasonable solution but for the love of God, they need to modernize that. Put in a user-serviceable ejector.

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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby Dave Brown » Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:31 am

HiPowered wrote:Now that I've had to deal with the one design flaw that I've found in the 870. Their stupid double riveted ejector. I realize that at the time it probably was a reasonable solution but for the love of God, they need to modernize that. Put in a user-serviceable ejector.
Yup, know what you mean!

The one thing you may want to look at, if you haven't already, is a Remington flex-tab shell carrier conversion kit.

When loading, I always encourage shooters to push the shell into the magazine fully, pushing in an extra inch or so just to make sure. This means that even with cold hands, gloves or loss of fine motor skills, shells still get in front of the shell latch.

If, for any of the above reasons (or sometimes just lazy loading on the part of the shooter,) a shell happens to spit out during loading, it will get caught between the bolt and the shell carrier. To clear this jam without the flex-tab carrier, one must disassemble the barrel. Even then, it will be a major headache.

To clear a jam where a shell is caught between the carrier and the bottom of the bolt WITH the flex-tab carrier (that U-shaped cut in the middle of the shell carrier) one simply points the shotgun in a safe direction, pushes up on the shell release lever and pulls back firmly on the pump. The stuck shell does not have enough clearance to clear the bolt normally, but with the flex-tab, it bends that one section of the carrier without further damage.

Also, in your spares kit, I would suggest two extra firing pin springs, plus a simple tool for tightening the fore end nut.

When installing the Hogue fore end (which I have on ALL my training shotguns) place a thin shim on the outside of the action bars left and right, near the rear of the fore end. This keeps the action bars straight while tightening the nut, and prevents those telltale streaks of rubber up one side of the barrel or the other. Because I have learned two universal truths about replacement fore ends: you can never tighten the nut enough to keep a Hogue EXACTLY straight between the action bars; and, no matter how much you tighten that nut, it will ALWAYS loosen with time. (Don't use locktite on it or you will regret it later.)

The 870 is what I personally call a 'fail-safe' design. This means even if you break a firing pin spring, it will still go bang most of the time (I once had one come out in 3 pieces.) Also, if the fore end nut ever loosens, your fore end will rotate in your hand slightly but the shotgun will still function normally.

Other than a flex-tab kit and a new high-vis follower, I would look maybe at the sight. If you have rifle sights, I highly recommend a set of Trjicon (or similar) night sights, not just for their night capabilities but also because of the gorgeous and square sight picture. If you have a bead, I love the XS Big Dot bead sights. You bond them over the existing bead, either a plain barrel bead or the Remington pedestal bead.

I personally have no use for jumbo safeties and other stuff most of us don't need. Heat shields, breeching choke tubes and bayonet lugs go without saying. I am a big fan of putting rounds downrange whenever you can, and doing a bit of dry-fire practice wherever it is safe. (Don't believe anyone who tells you it is hard on the gun to dry-fire an 870. After thousands of dry rounds, you may break a firing pin spring and that notorious riveted ejector, but that's about it.)

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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby Homer » Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:31 pm

Longarm9 wrote:
It's a sweet shotgun. Have you slam fired it yet? hehe
I have to admit that the first time was completely inadvertent. We were doing a competition at my club and forgot to release the trigger between the last two poppers. Needless to say, my last shot missed by a bit. :oops:
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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby Longarm9 » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:29 am

Homer wrote:
Longarm9 wrote:
It's a sweet shotgun. Have you slam fired it yet? hehe
I have to admit that the first time was completely inadvertent. We were doing a competition at my club and forgot to release the trigger between the last two poppers. Needless to say, my last shot missed by a bit. :oops:
I slam fired 7 rounds through it, and liked it so much, I slam fired 7 more lol. It was damn fun, but that barrel was pretty toasty by the time I was done. Was shooting high brass birdshot loads by federal.

Dave, I'm a little surprised that you don't endorse heat shields, at least for applications that involve high volume shooting, especially given that you endorsed the technique of inverting the shotgun in your off hand and loading shells with your dominant hand - doesn't that put your off hand rather close to or touching the toasty hot barrel of your shotgun?

I bought myself a 100 round value pack of low brass target load, #5 shot for lots of high volume target shooting fun, as per your advice. :jump:

We need a shotgun smiley on this forum...
"Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing." -John Stuart Mill


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