From the Book of Dave Brown

Discussion for firearms and less-lethal equipment.

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Striker
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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby Striker » Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:08 am

Dave Brown wrote:I could never get used to the feel of the Knoxx stock. It is a fine stock for people who like them. There is nothing wrong with it. It is just not what I would recommend for combat or duty use. (I have seen what they look like when they fracture or the spring breaks. Those failures are rare, but if you look at the design, you can see the stress points where you are trusting a LOT in the quality of the spring or the quality of the polymer.) I would no more recommend that to police officers for duty use than I would a polymer lower for ARs.

But I am glad there are those who like them. I ended up donating my Knoxx to a worthy cause, so I hope it found a good home.

As for the Chainsaw, it just doesn't have enough rail space for me.
Now you have me thinking..an aluminum spec ops would be kick ass....
I didn't buy the chainsaw because I can't use the Costa stance with it.
"I come in peace. I didn’t bring artillery. But I’m pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you fuck with me, I’ll kill you all."

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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby Dave Brown » Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:34 am

LOL! Love that line!

I don't understand the trend about trying to turn a shotgun into a carbine by adding accessories and changing the stance.

I'm not Chris Costa; it's not a rifle, and I'm not an "operator."

With a proper stance, your head is over top of your forward foot, your support side leg is bent at the knee and your strong side leg is straight. The recoil goes down your back and into the ground, leaving the muzzle rise to be straight upward. This is where fast follow-up shots can be made.

Standing square-on like a Costa fanboy, all that recoil torques your body sideways, and it adds not just fractions of a second to your follow-up shots but it means your front bead is also now tracking sideways onto a target instead of straight down from above. Misses are likelier if you don't take the extra time to nail down the bead.

Tradition is not always a good thing if it's made up of dogmatic principles that have never been tested or questioned. But sometimes, tradition is based on what has worked for years, and any deviation from tradition in order to sell DVDs or expensive training courses just slows people down in the real world when they find out they are not the "operators" they thought they were.

This is where the Spec Ops just doesn't live up to its promise. There is very little recoil reduction with training loads of birdshot, and the day you need to shoot a slug with a standard stock to save someone's life, one will not feel the recoil (or hear the sound of the shot) anyway. There is no point training all day with buckshot or slugs because that just pounds your shoulder, costs too much money and you fail to learn anything useful unless you are doing constant repetition of the basic skills. For the price of five slugs, I can shoot 50 rounds of birdshot. 50 repetitions is way better than five.

My recoil reduction strategy is a good stance and an acknowledgment that shotguns recoil more than .223 carbines; I work WITH it, rather than trying to FIGHT it.

Why overcomplicate a simple weapon that can be fired by the average person with a fair degree of accuracy at close ranges with some degree of good training that emphasizes constant repetition of the basic skills. Keep it simple. One of the issues I have always had with the Chris Costa crowd is how he would always say that the shotgun is a complex weapon. No it's not ... people make it complex.

Don't fear the man with the fancy gun and all the accessories; fear the man with the simple gun that has all the bluing worn off from constant practice.

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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby Striker » Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:41 pm

I pushed hard for the spec ops at work..for a couple of reasons.
first..we train with our duty load..#4 buck.
Reason 1 is..the fact it is adjustable. We have a lot of female officers that struggle with the length of pull, especially with their vest and parka on. This brings up a HUGE safety concern. Because they can't get a proper grip on the shotgun as soon as they put their finger in the trigger guard..they are in contact with the trigger and putting pressure on it. Plus they can't manipulate it safely and muzzle control goes out the window.
Because the stock has a rubber recoil pad and they can't shoulder the shotgun right (arms aren't long enough) more often then not..the stock ends up on their bicep. Which brings up problem #2.
They are recoil shy because they have been bruised up bad before.
I got permission to do a T&E at work with it and every female officer and a lot of male officers loved the adjustable length of pull and recoil reduction.
"I come in peace. I didn’t bring artillery. But I’m pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you fuck with me, I’ll kill you all."

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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby Dave Brown » Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:18 pm

When it first came out, there were few options for an aftermarket adjustable stocks. Spec-Ops was a good option at the time.

If you were to go through the same exercise today, you would probably want to look closer at the Mesa Tactical LEO adapter. Combine it with an AR stock and a Limbsaver slip-on buttpad, and you will never go back to the Spec Ops.

As I said, some people love the Spec Ops and some hate them. I just never saw the need in my style of training, and I was never happy with the thinness of material right at the high stress points. I have never had one fail, but I just didn't like the consequences.

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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby Striker » Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:34 am

My agency didn't approve them Dave..although I've heard rumblings that when our new shotguns roll out they will have them..or something.
As for being cross dominant..I am and taught myself to shoot left handed and shoot with both eyes open. <- that was a chore. lol
"I come in peace. I didn’t bring artillery. But I’m pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you fuck with me, I’ll kill you all."

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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby Longarm9 » Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:35 pm

Okay, this seems like a good place to ask this since Dave is here, and this has kind of been bugging me for a long time.
Coming from an infantry background, I'm very familiar with rifles, pistols, machineguns, rocket launchers, grenade launchers etc. and I can conceive of their advantages, how to use them etc. but shotguns are another matter. I'm really not that familiar with shotties, and I've never had any formal training on one. I do own an old Winchester Model 12 16 gauge that belonged to my grandmother, but I rarely do much shooting with it.

Tactically speaking, what are they "philosophies of use" (to borrow a term) of the shotgun besides breaching doors and such? Why would one choose a shotgun over say a carbine or a pistol? I've always felt like I'd far rather have a carbine with a holographic or some kind of optic in just about any situation as opposed to a shotgun, but I also have this nagging feeling that I'm missing a ton of info about the shotgun.

So, why a shotgun? What is the best scenario to use one? Why would I choose one for tactical or self defense use vs a rifle?

Share your knowledge oh learned ones! :D
"Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing." -John Stuart Mill

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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby Striker » Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:09 pm

Longarm9 wrote:Okay, this seems like a good place to ask this since Dave is here, and this has kind of been bugging me for a long time.
Coming from an infantry background, I'm very familiar with rifles, pistols, machineguns, rocket launchers, grenade launchers etc. and I can conceive of their advantages, how to use them etc. but shotguns are another matter. I'm really not that familiar with shotties, and I've never had any formal training on one. I do own an old Winchester Model 12 16 gauge that belonged to my grandmother, but I rarely do much shooting with it.

Tactically speaking, what are they "philosophies of use" (to borrow a term) of the shotgun besides breaching doors and such? Why would one choose a shotgun over say a carbine or a pistol? I've always felt like I'd far rather have a carbine with a holographic or some kind of optic in just about any situation as opposed to a shotgun, but I also have this nagging feeling that I'm missing a ton of info about the shotgun.

So, why a shotgun? What is the best scenario to use one? Why would I choose one for tactical or self defense use vs a rifle?

Share your knowledge oh learned ones! :D
This might be better discussed on the private side. ;)
"I come in peace. I didn’t bring artillery. But I’m pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you fuck with me, I’ll kill you all."

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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby Longarm9 » Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:48 pm

Striker wrote:This might be better discussed on the private side. ;)
Perhaps, although I wasn't sure I should start a new thread on it, or what.
"Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing." -John Stuart Mill

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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby Hoodwinkle » Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:34 am

This thread needs more pics!

Striker, I like that grizzly shotgun you have...ive been thinking of picking one up myself and I'm curious of your opinion after using one for awhile now.

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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby Homer » Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:39 am

Longarm9 wrote:Tactically speaking, what are they "philosophies of use" (to borrow a term) of the shotgun besides breaching doors and such? Why would one choose a shotgun over say a carbine or a pistol? I've always felt like I'd far rather have a carbine with a holographic or some kind of optic in just about any situation as opposed to a shotgun, but I also have this nagging feeling that I'm missing a ton of info about the shotgun.

So, why a shotgun? What is the best scenario to use one? Why would I choose one for tactical or self defense use vs a rifle?

Share your knowledge oh learned ones! :D
(From a non-LEO with some SG experience, based on freely-available info and not getting into LEO-specific training.)

To me the obvious advantages to shotguns are that they have a spread - meaning you do not have to be 'right on target' to hit (a bit simplified); and the buckshot is much less penetrating that a rifle bullet - or even pistol. For police these can be big advantages, and in those areas that tolerate use of firearms for self-protection shotguns are considered an excellent choice. There are, however some significant drawbacks: much shorter range than a carbine or rifle; that spread can be a problem when you have the target close to someone or something you do not want to hit; and they generally will have lower capacity and take longer to reload (not usually an issue for police, but when it is it becomes a big problem).

Note that most carbines currently being deployed (usually chambered in .223 Rem. rifle or .40 S&W pistol) will also have limitations when compared to a full-powered rifle (basically almost any other common centre-fire rifle cartridge other than 7.62x39) due to shorter effective range and reduced penetration. But it does not make sense to equip patrol vehicles with full-power rifles, as they do take specific training to use effectively and in most cases a carbine or shotgun will be sufficient. As for pistols, the only advantage to a handgun is that it is easy to carry and deploy. It has less stopping power and poorer accuracy than any long gun.

IMHO, the best setup would be to have each patrol vehicle equipped with both shotgun and rifle and rifle-rated vest or plates in the vehicle for known high-risk scenarios.
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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby Longarm9 » Thu Jan 01, 2015 5:47 am

So the big advantages of shotguns I guess would be the devastating knockdown power (up close), the lack of overpenetration, the ease of use/effectiveness, and I guess the ability to use different types of ammo in the same weapon (ie. slugs, buckshot, bird shot, beanbag, etc.)

Interesting. For home defense, I just see the super slow loading as such a major drawback.
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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby Homer » Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:03 am

Longarm9 wrote:Interesting. For home defense, I just see the super slow loading as such a major drawback.
No, not really practical this side of the border, but down south most states allow long guns to be kept loaded (I know, not exactly 'safe storage'). Six rounds should be enough to stop any but the most motivated of home invaders. :sniper:
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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby Longarm9 » Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:37 am

Homer wrote:
Longarm9 wrote:Interesting. For home defense, I just see the super slow loading as such a major drawback.
No, not really practical this side of the border, but down south most states allow long guns to be kept loaded (I know, not exactly 'safe storage'). Six rounds should be enough to stop any but the most motivated of home invaders. :sniper:
I wouldn't keep it loaded even if it was legal, since I have three little ones running around.

My Winchester model 12 holds 7 rounds I believe. 6 in the magazine tube plus one in the chamber.

The box magazine fed Grizzly is an interesting design, but unfortunately in practice it seems extremely unreliable (at least the one I tried was)
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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby Striker » Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:50 am

Hoodwinkle wrote:This thread needs more pics!

Striker, I like that grizzly shotgun you have...ive been thinking of picking one up myself and I'm curious of your opinion after using one for awhile now.
I have zero complaints..except for the cheesy furniture that came on it. I have no idea how many rounds have gone through it, but it is a lot and I haven't had one problem with it.
The fit is good..finish..that can be a crap shoot..but I'm going to redo it in gunkote some day so that wasn't an issue.
I would have no concerns with using it as a home defense shotgun.
"I come in peace. I didn’t bring artillery. But I’m pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you fuck with me, I’ll kill you all."

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Re: From the Book of Dave Brown

Postby Hoodwinkle » Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:33 am

Striker wrote: The fit is good..finish..that can be a crap shoot..but I'm going to redo it in gunkote some day so that wasn't an issue.
I would have no concerns with using it as a home defense shotgun.
That would be my purpose for it, home defense....I love the look of the short barrel and full butt...sexy little thing!

What's the mag capacity on yours?


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