Best 9mm Handguns website?

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FedCO
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Re: Best 9mm Handguns website?

Postby FedCO » Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:31 pm

lndshark wrote:Sounds like a nice target pistol, Dave.

I'm a HUGE fan of 9mm, and I have no qualms about using it as a professional defensive cartridge. That being said, I do also love the .45ACP cartridge, and given the choice, I'd be torn between carrying a G17 or my G21SF on duty.

The recoil of the G21SF is not anywhere near as "snappy" as my issued .40 caliber XD. I find that my follow-up shots are much quicker with the .45 than the .40. IMHO, the recoil is much more manageable. The 9mm would be even more controllable.

I am currently in the process of drafting a policy to open up our pistol and caliber selection and I'm really pushing for 9mm to be approved (along with .45ACP). With that, I'm hoping to include Glock, SIG and S&W in our sidearm choice.

Dave, have you had a hand in this, by chance? Can you offer any advice?
Dave Brown wrote:Well, if you want to open up the discussion to include my beloved .45 Auto cartridge, there are a LOT of choices.

My custom Glock 21 has a Bo-Mar barrel and the plain black classic Heinie sights that give me the perfect, square, black sight picture that enhances accuracy.

I would also love to get a 21SF, but I know this was a bit of a stop-gap model for Glock until they can come out with their Gen IV Model 21, which was finally announced at this years SHOT show.

The Model 21 only has one slight downside, that I won't get in to but it affects high-volume target shooters.

Sigarms makes a great .45, and if you open it to 1911 pistols, you could literally write a book on which is the best variant.
9mm is nice but i think .45 is the way to go for stopping a baddie in his tracks no?

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Re: Best 9mm Handguns website?

Postby Dave Brown » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:14 pm

lndshark wrote:I am currently in the process of drafting a policy to open up our pistol and caliber selection and I'm really pushing for 9mm to be approved (along with .45ACP). With that, I'm hoping to include Glock, SIG and S&W in our sidearm choice.

Dave, have you had a hand in this, by chance? Can you offer any advice?
I would be glad to offer any advice, including an exact breakdown of every make, model and calibre issued to every officer in Canada from our Cross-Country Gun Survey issues.

I am also working on an article on the "myth" of "stopping power." Stopping an immediate threat to human life must be done as efficiently and effectively as possible, in order to best preserve the safety of both officers and the public. This means that it is all about shot placement. There is NO magic bullet; officers must be aware of the physiological and psychological effects of stress on the human body, and must be prepared to fire as many accurate shots as it takes to stop a threat.

With the advancements in modern police bullet design, the 9mm Luger is a very effective cartridge. The .40 S&W is marginally more powerful, but it is also less fun to shoot and harder on the sidearms. A .45 Auto may be even more effective, but must be accompanied by good training that emphasizes shot placement over 'spray-and-pray.'

Here in Canada, we have about 55% of all agencies in Canada using the .40, and 45% adopting the 9mm. (There are few if any using the .45.) I would have no problem recommending the 9mm Luger to any agency.

Every agency in Canada issues a double-action-only (DAO) pistol, with Glock holding 38% of the agencies in Canada (and rising), Sigarms at 29% (and rising), Beretta at 19% (and falling rapidly), and S&W at 15% of the agencies in Canada (holding steady.) There are no agencies using a single-action semi-automatic, and the only police agency using double-action is the Military Police. DAO is the only pistol I would recommend because it has the point-at-the-bad-guy-and-pull-the-trigger simplicity that I highly value.

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Re: Best 9mm Handguns website?

Postby Grassynarrows » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:33 pm

Amen Dave

looking forward to getting my new 229R DAK pistol issued sometime this year.
OPP K9 and TRU are issued the Sig P226 X5 SAO 9mm nowadays.
Be professional and methodical. Take ownership of the situation. Look, listen and understand what is really being said and you will never have to walk away from an incident wondering if you missed something. Make every contact with the public count.

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Re: Best 9mm Handguns website?

Postby SierraSeven » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:00 pm

Grassynarrows wrote:Amen Dave

looking forward to getting my new 229R DAK pistol issued sometime this year.
OPP K9 and TRU are issued the Sig P226 X5 SAO 9mm nowadays.
Is the issuing of a 9mm pistol due to the weapon mounted light and there isn't a .40 caliber option, or is there some other reason behind the caliber switch?
While you are reading this, your enemy is training.

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Re: Best 9mm Handguns website?

Postby FedCO » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:50 pm

@Dave why is Glock gaining ground? I read somewhere in usa there is a push to go from Glock to Smith and Wesson with MP. Your thoughts?

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Re: Best 9mm Handguns website?

Postby Dave Brown » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:05 am

The only thing you may have read about agencies switching from Glock to S&W is from gun writers trying to promote the newest and latest over the tried and true (who perhaps don't advertise as heavily.) It is just not true.

As for Canada, Glock is gaining ground because five large agencies have recently dumped Beretta, citing quality-control and customer-service issues. Four went to Glock and one (VPD) went to Sig.

Beretta suffered a net loss because they lost quite a few agencies and only gained one. (CBSA - and, no, I am not about to get in to the story of why the CBSA adopted Beretta, but let's put it this way; in a world where a sidearm should last the career of an officer, CBSA issues brand new pistols to their officers every three years.)

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Re: Best 9mm Handguns website?

Postby Bald Man » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:18 am

SierraSeven wrote:
Grassynarrows wrote:Amen Dave

looking forward to getting my new 229R DAK pistol issued sometime this year.
OPP K9 and TRU are issued the Sig P226 X5 SAO 9mm nowadays.
Is the issuing of a 9mm pistol due to the weapon mounted light and there isn't a .40 caliber option, or is there some other reason behind the caliber switch?
Most if not all tactical teams carry 9mm's to be compatable with their MP5 9mm SMG's. I was speaking to our tacs guys a few weeks ago and they told me they are phazing out the MP5. Most if not all tac guys prefer the short AR15 type rifles now and they are cheaper fior the service to buy. I'm told there is no use for a full auto SMG in police work and the Tac guys who still use the MP5 only use semi and burst fire. The MP5's will remain in service but will not be repaired if they break down. Once all of our services MP5's are out of service, they will likely starting carring a Glock 22 like the rest of the service.

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Re: Best 9mm Handguns website?

Postby Bald Man » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:19 am

Grassynarrows wrote:Amen Dave

looking forward to getting my new 229R DAK pistol issued sometime this year.
OPP K9 and
TRU are issued the Sig P226 X5 SAO 9mm nowaday
s.

Makes sense since they use to carry Browning Hi-powers.

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Re: Best 9mm Handguns website?

Postby Bald Man » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:24 am

Grassynarrows wrote:Amen Dave

looking forward to getting my new 229R DAK pistol issued sometime this year.
OPP K9 and TRU are issued the Sig P226 X5 SAO 9mm nowadays.
I hear the new Sig P229 DAK's will have an upgraded 8lbs trigger on them. I assume Sig will make any configuration services want who order pistols in large numbers.

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Re: Best 9mm Handguns website?

Postby FedCO » Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:19 am

Bald Man wrote:
Grassynarrows wrote:Amen Dave

looking forward to getting my new 229R DAK pistol issued sometime this year.
OPP K9 and TRU are issued the Sig P226 X5 SAO 9mm nowadays.
I hear the new Sig P229 DAK's will have an upgraded 8lbs trigger on them. I assume Sig will make any configuration services want who order pistols in large numbers.
So you mean wont the teams be using their Sigs once they transition to AR shortly not Glocks?

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Re: Best 9mm Handguns website?

Postby Bald Man » Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:39 am

FedCO wrote:
Bald Man wrote:
Grassynarrows wrote:Amen Dave

looking forward to getting my new 229R DAK pistol issued sometime this year.
OPP K9 and TRU are issued the Sig P226 X5 SAO 9mm nowadays.
I hear the new Sig P229 DAK's will have an upgraded 8lbs trigger on them. I assume Sig will make any configuration services want who order pistols in large numbers.
So you mean wont the teams be using their Sigs once they transition to AR shortly not Glocks?
Speaking for my service which is not the OPP, our officers are issued Glock 22's (23's and 27's in some cases). The tac team currently carries Glock 17's to be compatable with their MP5's. But since the MP5's are being phazed out, our tac officers are looking at just carrying the standard Glock 22 as a secondardy sidearm since their primary will be C8 CQB's. I'm told the MP5's have lost their popularity in favour of the C8 CQB's which are far superior. This is just what I'm told.

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Re: Best 9mm Handguns website?

Postby Bald Man » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:15 pm

For the sake of arguement, if stopping power is such a myth, then why did the 125gr 357 magnum have such a reputation as being probably one of the best if not the best, man stopper compared to a 125gr +P 38 special? Why do hunters use larger more powerful rounds for larger game if it's just about shot placement? How effective would a .223 Rem be on a big bull moose? I agree that shot placement is important. I recognize there is a big market for firearms and the different chamberings too. I also think there are different power levels between the 9mm, 40 S&W, ,357 Sig, 45 ACP and 45 GAP which paly a role in stopping the threat. But again the famous .357 mag round police used was a simple 125gr SJHP. No fancy bullet design there, just a tone of velocity and engergy behind that bullet.

I recall reading one of the guys in the famous Miami shoot out was shot with a 9mm winchester silvertip, 147gr JHP I think, the bullet passed through his arm, through his lung and stopped short of his heart. He was able to continue to kill FBI agents. Afterwards the FBI conduct testing for a more effective pistol cartridge because of the less than stellar performance of 9mm and 38 special rounds, 10mm being the choosen round. As everyone knows that is where the 40S&W evolved from. Are you suggesting all the FBI reserch on pistol stopping power, performance and past experiences in shootouts are worthless? I believe the current FBI ammo testing has set the bar for law enforcement pistol performance.

Officers of the New York State Police are issued the Glock 37 chambered in .45 GAP as the service pistol. The New York State Police previously used the Glock 17 9mm from 1989 to 2007. The Glock 37 was chosen after the shooting death of Trooper Andrew Sperr in Chemung County on March 1, 2006.

It appears from this shooting, the NY State Police dumped the 9mm because of it's lack of performance and ability to drop the suspect(s).

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Re: Best 9mm Handguns website?

Postby lndshark » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:48 pm

I'm sure the NYSP saw the Glock 37 as a great package (a large-bore caliber in a medium-size frame). I'm also sure that the price Glock offered them (something like an even trade for their old pistols) was quite attractive too (and I think that holsters and magazine pouches were thrown into the mix too. Glock went through enormous lengths to get the .45GAP in the hands of officers to promote the cartridge.

Shot placement has, IMHO, everything to do with stopping the threat. The better chance that the projectile, be it .32ACP or .458 Win-Mag has of hitting the CNS, the better chance there is of ending the battle. If 9mm give the officer the ability (and confidence) to do so, and the ease of follow-up shots in a dynamic, fighting situation, so be it.

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Re: Best 9mm Handguns website?

Postby lndshark » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:51 pm

Dave, I'd love to see that information if you could provide it to me. Will a PM suffice or is work email preferred?

When I was asking for suggestions, I was wondering if you'd had a hand in policy writing in so far as officers' use of personally-owned weapons. I can see now that this isn't the case in Canada. But, if you have information about pistol selection, and how it relates to different personnel and their qualifications with such, I'd love to hear your take.

The info. about the survey interest me greatly. Not only because I'm a gun nut, but I'm also curious to see who's carrying what, and why.

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Re: Best 9mm Handguns website?

Postby Bald Man » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:30 pm

lndshark wrote:I'm sure the NYSP saw the Glock 37 as a great package (a large-bore caliber in a medium-size frame). I'm also sure that the price Glock offered them (something like an even trade for their old pistols) was quite attractive too (and I think that holsters and magazine pouches were thrown into the mix too. Glock went through enormous lengths to get the .45GAP in the hands of officers to promote the cartridge.
That's a good point.


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