CBSA firearm training

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Bitterman
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CBSA firearm training

Postby Bitterman » Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:15 pm

Exactly how long has the whole arming CBSA staff been in the works...?
Now I know that almost any gov't plan is rife with glitches and delays caused bt short sighted planning, but...
Didn't anyone in charge think that they'd need venues to shoot at..?
I was recently informed that CBSA approached one of the gun clubs I belong to asking if they could use/rent the facility to do their training... They were refused so now I suppose they're still looking to secure a suitable venue.
I spoke with one young CBSA fella at the Ft. Erie Ont, crossing who said he was being sent to BC for his training. :shock:

Not very efficient...
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Re: CBSA firearm training

Postby Actus Reus » Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:11 pm

We're a government agency, so the word 'efficiency' is not in our vocabulary.

Our own indoor and outdoor ranges at the CBSA Rigaud training centre are under construction and won't be ready for another year or two.

In the meantime, officers are being sent to either the Connaught range in Ottawa or the federal training centre at Chiliwack, BC. The basic arming course is approx. 3 weeks, with an extra couple of days tacked on for inland officers (immigration, investigations, intelligence). The extra modules cover topics such as house clearing, car stops and vehicle extactions.

The initial plan was to have all of our officers armed within 10 years. There has been some efforts at speeding this up, which is why some private ranges have been approached by the Agency. Basically, we would rent the space and provide our own instructors. The big problem is that we shoot lead-based ammunition, which requires specialized ventilation and other equipment to accomodate the rounds. This cuts down on the number of ranges we can use.
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Re: CBSA firearm training

Postby Bitterman » Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:35 pm

'CBSA rep seemed a little taken aback when told "No, we don't rent the range to agencies"

'bad experiences in the past have lead to this policy.
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Re: CBSA firearm training

Postby NorthernProtector » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:41 pm

The Agency has been trying to acquire a third training centre and the last I heard it had gone to PWGSC for tender. In addition to a third facility, as Hoody noted, the Agency has been trying to secure ranges for use in each Region for practise sessions and annual re-certification. One thing that EVERY government department/agency is very proficient at is re-inventing the wheel. It's amazing that anything gets done at all.
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Re: CBSA firearm training

Postby ICE23 » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:01 pm

Why hasn't CBSA looked to the Military for ranges? Like CFB Borden, CFB Trenton ect

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Re: CBSA firearm training

Postby Bitterman » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:18 pm

Hoodwinkle wrote:
Bitterman wrote:'CBSA rep seemed a little taken aback when told "No, we don't rent the range to agencies"

'bad experiences in the past have lead to this policy.


I don't blame your club. These reps probably come with bags of money and promises of a great working relationship.... :smirk:

Who would want to give up their range time so some goons can hog all the range time? :mrgreen:


It just isn't worth the hassle... In the past renting out space/time has lead to serious damage, safety concerns and even closure by the CFO due to complaints of rounds leaving the range... Of course the agencies in question denied everything..
Kind of ironic... The police act poorly on the range so the neibours complain to the CFO... who are the OPP.. who then shut your range down pending their "investigation" :roll:

One club even had video of an agencies conduct. They forgot to cover up one camera... The one that taped them covering up all the other cameras... which they had denied doing. That was an awkward meeting with the Chief :mrgreen:

I've also got stories of Tac teams firing Full Auto on civvie ranges... None of which are apporved for FA... I suppose they believe they're exempt 'cause well.... They're the police, but.... sorry, the range is not approved. This too gets the local cops summond to the range due to complaints about "Someone's shootin' a machine gun!! :shock:

There is one benefit though of having agencies practice on your range... I managed to get 20,000 pieces of 9mm brass from a friend who had something to do with the CBSA's pistol trials.. :mrgreen: All of it fired outta whatever HK pistol was up for consideration :D
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Re: CBSA firearm training

Postby No 20 Year Medal » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:39 pm

Is there still a range in Cornwall at what used to be called the Transport Canada Training Institute (now called NavCan or something along those lines....) that government types could use?
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Re: CBSA firearm training

Postby SierraSeven » Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:51 am

Hmmm.
Last edited by SierraSeven on Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CBSA firearm training

Postby Dave Brown » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:10 am

Frangible ammunition.

No mods needed for the range and much easier on backstops.

It leaves a very fine pink dust, but it is non-toxic so if one can find a way to keep the dust down, this is the answer to range training on old-style plate-and-pit type backstops where only target loads are accepted. It uses a highly compressed powder, covered with a copper wash.

(It leaves copper streaks on the backstop though, so if officers are getting stupid and shooting places they shouldn't be, it will be immediately obvious.) It has no minimum contact distance from metal objects.

Watch for an article on frangible ammunition in Blue Line in 2009.

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Re: CBSA firearm training

Postby Bitterman » Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:31 am

Dave Brown wrote:(It leaves copper streaks on the backstop though, so if officers are getting stupid and shooting places they shouldn't be, it will be immediately obvious.) .


More obvious than holes in the ceiling, walls etc...? :mrgreen:

Dave Brown wrote:Watch for an article on frangible ammunition in Blue Line in 2009.


Could it be due to cost that this new fangled ammo isn't seen in more widespread use...?
Is it much more expensive than good ol' fashioned lead/copper pills?
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Re: CBSA firearm training

Postby warden602 » Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:34 am

You guys will need to find a new range when all the park wardens show up in Chilliwack this winter ;)

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Re: CBSA firearm training

Postby polarbear » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:00 am

Bitterman wrote:
Dave Brown wrote:(It leaves copper streaks on the backstop though, so if officers are getting stupid and shooting places they shouldn't be, it will be immediately obvious.) .


More obvious than holes in the ceiling, walls etc...? :mrgreen:

Dave Brown wrote:Watch for an article on frangible ammunition in Blue Line in 2009.


Could it be due to cost that this new fangled ammo isn't seen in more widespread use...?
Is it much more expensive than good ol' fashioned lead/copper pills?



I know that at ENPQ, all of the ammo that I shot off at the firing range were frangible rounds..
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Re: CBSA firearm training

Postby No 20 Year Medal » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:44 am

SierraSeven wrote:I think use of that range, if it still exists, and been completely ruled out for local political reasons.
Why am I not surprised...Image
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