S&W 5946 R.I.P

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby Dave Brown » Sun May 10, 2015 3:39 pm

I tend to have confidence in good training and good officers.

This is why I personally fully agree with FedCO and what Barrie PS has done. I like the idea of a weapon-mounted light for situations where the gun is out anyway, and a tactical light carried on your person as per normal for when it isn't.

Train people properly, set standards high, and people will surprise you.

Set low standards, treat officers like children, equip everything you issue with the equivalent of child-safety locks such as magazine disconnects, and officers sink to their level of training and how they are treated.

I have been teaching and writing about flashlight shooting techniques for many years; the 'just okay' techniques, the BAD techniques (the 'FBI' method) and the REALLY REALLY BAD techniques (the "Ayoob' method.) The truth is that there is no really good method to hold a flashlight and a gun at the same time. In reality, the best flashlight method in the world may be forgotten the first moment bullets start flying in your direction. Unless you have time to prepare your grip, flashlight shooting is simply one-handed shooting. Nothing fancier than that. Hold the flashlight where it is right now in your support hand; draw and respond with your strong hand. Keep it simple, and you get to go home at the end of your shift.

This is why I support weapon-mounted lights, together with good training that treats officers as adults, not children. This is also why I will never support magazine disconnects, or requirements to not have to pull the trigger to disassemble the gun.

Keep it simple: PROVE a handgun safe every time; load only from the slide-back position; never use the slide stop for anything other than locking the slide back to PROVE it safe; chamber the round using a proper overhand grasp (or pinch grasp if that is the way you were taught); make sure your support hand ALWAYS moves in the opposite direction of the slide; and do it the same way as your emergency manipulation skills every day. These are the tenets of good training.

Maybe it is time to require all officers have the CFSC/CRFSC before they apply? It might not be a bad idea. After all, the common sense approach and the reinforcement of the basic technical skills is not just an important part of that training, it is also MUCH superior to some of the commonly-accepted U.S.-based "rules" of gun safety that should never have become "rules."
U.S. firearms instructor: "And, rule #2 is to never point your firearm at anything you are not prepared to destroy."

Student: "Uh ... but we are pointed at the wall. I don't want to destroy the wall. I dry-fire in front of my TV. I don't want to destroy my TV. If I need to look down the barrel after I clean it, I don't want to destroy myself. I cover a suspect with my gun: I don't want to destroy that suspect."

U.S. firearms instructor: "Doesn't matter. Those are the RULES."

Student: "So, you are teaching rules that both us and you yourself are going to be breaking in literally the next five minutes, and you expect us to respect it as a hard and fast 'rule'??"

U.S. firearms instructor: "Jeff Cooper says those are the RULES."

Student: (under his breath) "Jeff Cooper is an idiot."
Now compare that to the CFSC:
Rule #2 - Control the muzzle direction at all times.
See my point? Treat officers like adults, teach "rules" that make sense, be consistent, keep it simple and lo and behold, they (mostly) behave like adults.

Or maybe I am just dreaming?

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby FedCO » Sun May 10, 2015 8:11 pm

Whi_Tan wrote:Seems to be fine for Barrie PS. Great that they are acting as guinea pigs for the rest of us.
Nice! What kit they using>

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby FedCO » Sun May 10, 2015 8:16 pm

Dave Brown wrote:I tend to have confidence in good training and good officers.

This is why I personally fully agree with FedCO and what Barrie PS has done. I like the idea of a weapon-mounted light for situations where the gun is out anyway, and a tactical light carried on your person as per normal for when it isn't.

Train people properly, set standards high, and people will surprise you.

Set low standards, treat officers like children, equip everything you issue with the equivalent of child-safety locks such as magazine disconnects, and officers sink to their level of training and how they are treated.

I have been teaching and writing about flashlight shooting techniques for many years; the 'just okay' techniques, the BAD techniques (the 'FBI' method) and the REALLY REALLY BAD techniques (the "Ayoob' method.) The truth is that there is no really good method to hold a flashlight and a gun at the same time. In reality, the best flashlight method in the world will be tossed out the window the first moment bullets start flying in your direction. Unless you have time to prepare your grip, flashlight shooting is simply one-handed shooting. Nothing fancier than that. Hold the flashlight where it is right now in your support hand; draw and respond with your strong hand. Keep it simple, and you get to go home at the end of your shift.

This is why I support weapon-mounted lights, together with good training that treats officers as adults, not children. This is also why I will never support magazine disconnects, or requirements to not have to pull the trigger to disassemble the gun.

Keep it simple: PROVE a handgun safe every time; load only from the slide-back position; never use the slide stop for anything other than locking the slide back to PROVE it safe; chamber the round using a proper overhand grasp (or pinch grasp if that is the way you were taught); make sure your support hand ALWAYS moves in the opposite direction of the slide; and do it the same way as your emergency manipulation skills every day. These are the tenets of good training.

Maybe it is time to require all officers have the CFSC/CRFSC before they apply? It might not be a bad idea. After all, the common sense approach and the reinforcement of the basic technical skills is not just an important part of that training, it is also MUCH superior to some of the commonly-accepted U.S.-based "rules" of gun safety that should never have become "rules."
U.S. firearms instructor: "And, rule #2 is to never point your firearm at anything you are not prepared to destroy."

Student: "Uh ... but we are pointed at the wall. I don't want to destroy the wall. I dry-fire in front of my TV. I don't want to destroy my TV. If I need to look down the barrel after I clean it, I don't want to destroy myself. I cover a suspect with my gun: I don't want to destroy that suspect."

U.S. firearms instructor: "Doesn't matter. Those are the RULES."

Student: "So, you are teaching rules that both us and you yourself are going to be breaking in literally the next five minutes, and you expect us to respect it as a hard and fast 'rule'??"

U.S. firearms instructor: "Jeff Cooper says those are the RULES."

Student: (under his breath) "Jeff Cooper is an idiot."
Now compare that to the CFSC:
Rule #2 - Control the muzzle direction at all times.
See my point? Treat officers like adults, teach "rules" that make sense, be consistent, keep it simple and lo and behold, they (mostly) behave like adults.

Or maybe I am just dreaming?
I agree. Maybe CBSA is on to something forcing applicants to have their RPAL to apply. I can see why as they see all kind of firearms at the border and well the CFSC is a good program. It wouldn't hurt to have it before applying to a force.

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby frozenmountie » Sun May 10, 2015 8:53 pm

Yeah, that would be great. They'd be able to spend less time on firearms basics and more time on improving your shooting during training at depot. :pistols:
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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby Dave Brown » Sun May 10, 2015 9:25 pm

I agree. Unless the person has done one of those "quickie" courses, where they give you your pass mark for both courses after three hours in some guys kitchen, just giving you the answers to mark down on the test sheet. CBC did a hidden camera investigation of exactly that.

Some instructors don't even give the practical test. They just mark a fake mark on their test sheet.

As one of the people who worked hard to develop a great course that has been lauded around the world (and the one who actually coined the PROVE acronym) I am disappointed when standards get lowered.

But there is a reason that, when it came to firearms safety, Samuel L. Jackson once affectionately called me a mean ...

Well, let's just say it was the same thing he once called some snakes.

And a plane.

(I was going to put that on my business cards until Pete pointed out - who hasn't he called that.)

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby VanSmack » Sun May 10, 2015 9:28 pm

we gotta get these muthalovin' snakes off this Monday to Friday plane!
Second to my all time Spike TV edit;
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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby RGW » Mon May 11, 2015 5:12 pm

Dave Brown wrote:I agree. Unless the person has done one of those "quickie" courses, where they give you your pass mark for both courses after three hours in some guys kitchen, just giving you the answers to mark down on the test sheet. CBC did a hidden camera investigation of exactly that.

Some instructors don't even give the practical test. They just mark a fake mark on their test sheet.

I heard there was a few of those in the LMD, offering ESL courses. Hopefully the ones you are referring to got turfed.

Also - Dave, are your CFSC/CRFSC guns permanently disabled? Not sure what province you are in but does your CFO require it? BC does.

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby imascott » Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:37 pm

Longarm9 wrote:Let me just say that magazine disconnects are the stupidest feature ever invented in handguns.
As a court officer who doesn't have time to dump his sidearm when going into a cell block in a rural town, the magazine disconnect isn't all that bad of an idea. Considering an Albertan Sheriff got shot with his own firearm (glock) in 2012. Can't say amazing things about his own retention habits but bad things do happen to good people.
Sometimes... you get on here, and just know, you're dealing with "that guy." All your efforts to be, and sound reasonable, are useless. And there are a lot of those guys on blueline.

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby HiPowered » Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:41 pm

imascott wrote:
Longarm9 wrote:Let me just say that magazine disconnects are the stupidest feature ever invented in handguns.
As a court officer who doesn't have time to dump his sidearm when going into a cell block in a rural town, the magazine disconnect isn't all that bad of an idea. Considering an Albertan Sheriff got shot with his own firearm (glock) in 2012. Can't say amazing things about his own retention habits but bad things do happen to good people.
I think you're way out of your depth and you need to check yourself before you say something even more idiotic.

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby LAWDOG » Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:49 am

imascott wrote:
Longarm9 wrote:Let me just say that magazine disconnects are the stupidest feature ever invented in handguns.
As a court officer who doesn't have time to dump his sidearm when going into a cell block in a rural town, the magazine disconnect isn't all that bad of an idea. Considering an Albertan Sheriff got shot with his own firearm (glock) in 2012. Can't say amazing things about his own retention habits but bad things do happen to good people.
I agree. Magazine disconnect can be a lifesaver.
"A good plan violently executed right now, is far better than a perfect plan executed next week." Gen. George S Patton

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby HiPowered » Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:29 pm

LAWDOG wrote:
imascott wrote:
Longarm9 wrote:Let me just say that magazine disconnects are the stupidest feature ever invented in handguns.
As a court officer who doesn't have time to dump his sidearm when going into a cell block in a rural town, the magazine disconnect isn't all that bad of an idea. Considering an Albertan Sheriff got shot with his own firearm (glock) in 2012. Can't say amazing things about his own retention habits but bad things do happen to good people.
I agree. Magazine disconnect can be a lifesaver.
It can be, but it's an extremely narrow set of circumstances. And there are just as many circumstances where it could kill you. Like Cst Strongquill.

"imascott"s reasoning given above is laziness and poor officer safety skills. And it's even more offensive that after admitting that he's too lazy to do his job properly, he shits on a fellow officer who was seriously injured during a fight for his life when "imascott" clearly doesn't even know the whole story.

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby imascott » Fri May 13, 2016 3:06 pm

Hi Power is right that I don't know the full story. Some of my best instructors used to always say during a demonstration of side-arm retention or any compromising position you find yourself in, ask yourself this question "how the f#*k did I let myself get into this situation?" So my question to that Albertan officer that got shot with his sidearm is "how the f#%k did you allow yourself to get in that situation?"

Mag disconnect is a good way to avoid said circumstance.
Sometimes... you get on here, and just know, you're dealing with "that guy." All your efforts to be, and sound reasonable, are useless. And there are a lot of those guys on blueline.

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby HiPowered » Fri May 13, 2016 4:03 pm

imascott wrote:Hi Power is right that I don't know the full story. Some of my best instructors used to always say during a demonstration of side-arm retention or any compromising position you find yourself in, ask yourself this question "how the f#*k did I let myself get into this situation?" So my question to that Albertan officer that got shot with his sidearm is "how the f#%k did you allow yourself to get in that situation?"

Mag disconnect is a good way to avoid said circumstance.
The short version is that he was going to the aid of his partner who had been ambushed in a cell block by two cons. It was 2 on 2 and the fight escalated to the point that he was struggling for his gun while being beaten on the head with a collapsible baton.

To be more specific than that, you'd have to ask him. And maybe drop your superior attitude when questioning a fellow officer's actions on the internet from your easy chair.

I hope you don't display this attitude at work with your coworkers, who will be depending on you for support and assistance if they're ever in a similar position.

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby imascott » Fri May 27, 2016 12:36 am

Sounds pretty much like how I heard it. Still not going to say that I know what went on. However, pretty rich that you would call me lazy for a hypothetical lack of secure gun box access, when that guy ran in to a cell block with a loaded operable firearm. Yup ... I can see you just want to curtail the issue with your "feelings". Magazine disconnect would have been a step 1 tool here. What good are situations like these if we can't learn from them?
Sometimes... you get on here, and just know, you're dealing with "that guy." All your efforts to be, and sound reasonable, are useless. And there are a lot of those guys on blueline.

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby HiPowered » Sat May 28, 2016 3:03 pm

imascott wrote:Sounds pretty much like how I heard it. Still not going to say that I know what went on. However, pretty rich that you would call me lazy for a hypothetical lack of secure gun box access, when that guy ran in to a cell block with a loaded operable firearm. Yup ... I can see you just want to curtail the issue with your "feelings". Magazine disconnect would have been a step 1 tool here. What good are situations like these if we can't learn from them?
If you want to discuss techniques and tactics about loading/unloading and using magazine disconnects in more detail, I'd invite you to do so in the private LEO forum as opposed to this public one. I'll gladly talk about it.

This has nothing to do with my feelings, and everything to do with you taking a cheap shot at a "fellow officer" in your post above and now you're backpedalling and changing your story.

These situations are good opportunities to learn about what we can do better, but we don't do that by shitting on an officer who was fighting for his life when you admittedly don't know what happened.


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