S&W 5946 R.I.P

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Dave Brown
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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby Dave Brown » Sun May 10, 2015 9:25 pm

I agree. Unless the person has done one of those "quickie" courses, where they give you your pass mark for both courses after three hours in some guys kitchen, just giving you the answers to mark down on the test sheet. CBC did a hidden camera investigation of exactly that.

Some instructors don't even give the practical test. They just mark a fake mark on their test sheet.

As one of the people who worked hard to develop a great course that has been lauded around the world (and the one who actually coined the PROVE acronym) I am disappointed when standards get lowered.

But there is a reason that, when it came to firearms safety, Samuel L. Jackson once affectionately called me a mean ...

Well, let's just say it was the same thing he once called some snakes.

And a plane.

(I was going to put that on my business cards until Pete pointed out - who hasn't he called that.)

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby RGW » Mon May 11, 2015 5:12 pm

Dave Brown wrote:I agree. Unless the person has done one of those "quickie" courses, where they give you your pass mark for both courses after three hours in some guys kitchen, just giving you the answers to mark down on the test sheet. CBC did a hidden camera investigation of exactly that.

Some instructors don't even give the practical test. They just mark a fake mark on their test sheet.



I heard there was a few of those in the LMD, offering ESL courses. Hopefully the ones you are referring to got turfed.

Also - Dave, are your CFSC/CRFSC guns permanently disabled? Not sure what province you are in but does your CFO require it? BC does.

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby imascott » Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:37 pm

Longarm9 wrote:Let me just say that magazine disconnects are the stupidest feature ever invented in handguns.


As a court officer who doesn't have time to dump his sidearm when going into a cell block in a rural town, the magazine disconnect isn't all that bad of an idea. Considering an Albertan Sheriff got shot with his own firearm (glock) in 2012. Can't say amazing things about his own retention habits but bad things do happen to good people.
Sometimes... you get on here, and just know, you're dealing with "that guy." All your efforts to be, and sound reasonable, are useless. And there are a lot of those guys on blueline.

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby HiPowered » Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:41 pm

imascott wrote:
Longarm9 wrote:Let me just say that magazine disconnects are the stupidest feature ever invented in handguns.


As a court officer who doesn't have time to dump his sidearm when going into a cell block in a rural town, the magazine disconnect isn't all that bad of an idea. Considering an Albertan Sheriff got shot with his own firearm (glock) in 2012. Can't say amazing things about his own retention habits but bad things do happen to good people.


I think you're way out of your depth and you need to check yourself before you say something even more idiotic.

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby LAWDOG » Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:49 am

imascott wrote:
Longarm9 wrote:Let me just say that magazine disconnects are the stupidest feature ever invented in handguns.


As a court officer who doesn't have time to dump his sidearm when going into a cell block in a rural town, the magazine disconnect isn't all that bad of an idea. Considering an Albertan Sheriff got shot with his own firearm (glock) in 2012. Can't say amazing things about his own retention habits but bad things do happen to good people.


I agree. Magazine disconnect can be a lifesaver.
"A good plan violently executed right now, is far better than a perfect plan executed next week." Gen. George S Patton

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby HiPowered » Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:29 pm

LAWDOG wrote:
imascott wrote:
Longarm9 wrote:Let me just say that magazine disconnects are the stupidest feature ever invented in handguns.


As a court officer who doesn't have time to dump his sidearm when going into a cell block in a rural town, the magazine disconnect isn't all that bad of an idea. Considering an Albertan Sheriff got shot with his own firearm (glock) in 2012. Can't say amazing things about his own retention habits but bad things do happen to good people.


I agree. Magazine disconnect can be a lifesaver.


It can be, but it's an extremely narrow set of circumstances. And there are just as many circumstances where it could kill you. Like Cst Strongquill.

"imascott"s reasoning given above is laziness and poor officer safety skills. And it's even more offensive that after admitting that he's too lazy to do his job properly, he shits on a fellow officer who was seriously injured during a fight for his life when "imascott" clearly doesn't even know the whole story.

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby imascott » Fri May 13, 2016 3:06 pm

Hi Power is right that I don't know the full story. Some of my best instructors used to always say during a demonstration of side-arm retention or any compromising position you find yourself in, ask yourself this question "how the f#*k did I let myself get into this situation?" So my question to that Albertan officer that got shot with his sidearm is "how the f#%k did you allow yourself to get in that situation?"

Mag disconnect is a good way to avoid said circumstance.
Sometimes... you get on here, and just know, you're dealing with "that guy." All your efforts to be, and sound reasonable, are useless. And there are a lot of those guys on blueline.

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby HiPowered » Fri May 13, 2016 4:03 pm

imascott wrote:Hi Power is right that I don't know the full story. Some of my best instructors used to always say during a demonstration of side-arm retention or any compromising position you find yourself in, ask yourself this question "how the f#*k did I let myself get into this situation?" So my question to that Albertan officer that got shot with his sidearm is "how the f#%k did you allow yourself to get in that situation?"

Mag disconnect is a good way to avoid said circumstance.


The short version is that he was going to the aid of his partner who had been ambushed in a cell block by two cons. It was 2 on 2 and the fight escalated to the point that he was struggling for his gun while being beaten on the head with a collapsible baton.

To be more specific than that, you'd have to ask him. And maybe drop your superior attitude when questioning a fellow officer's actions on the internet from your easy chair.

I hope you don't display this attitude at work with your coworkers, who will be depending on you for support and assistance if they're ever in a similar position.

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby imascott » Fri May 27, 2016 12:36 am

Sounds pretty much like how I heard it. Still not going to say that I know what went on. However, pretty rich that you would call me lazy for a hypothetical lack of secure gun box access, when that guy ran in to a cell block with a loaded operable firearm. Yup ... I can see you just want to curtail the issue with your "feelings". Magazine disconnect would have been a step 1 tool here. What good are situations like these if we can't learn from them?
Sometimes... you get on here, and just know, you're dealing with "that guy." All your efforts to be, and sound reasonable, are useless. And there are a lot of those guys on blueline.

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby HiPowered » Sat May 28, 2016 3:03 pm

imascott wrote:Sounds pretty much like how I heard it. Still not going to say that I know what went on. However, pretty rich that you would call me lazy for a hypothetical lack of secure gun box access, when that guy ran in to a cell block with a loaded operable firearm. Yup ... I can see you just want to curtail the issue with your "feelings". Magazine disconnect would have been a step 1 tool here. What good are situations like these if we can't learn from them?


If you want to discuss techniques and tactics about loading/unloading and using magazine disconnects in more detail, I'd invite you to do so in the private LEO forum as opposed to this public one. I'll gladly talk about it.

This has nothing to do with my feelings, and everything to do with you taking a cheap shot at a "fellow officer" in your post above and now you're backpedalling and changing your story.

These situations are good opportunities to learn about what we can do better, but we don't do that by shitting on an officer who was fighting for his life when you admittedly don't know what happened.

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby imascott » Tue Oct 18, 2016 12:10 pm

Just found this... perusing.

"Many law-enforcement agencies, including the Federal Bureau of Investigation, do not want a magazine safety. Their reasoning: that being able to fire the bullet remaining in the chamber could save the life of an officer who changes his magazine or accidentally releases it in a gunfight.

But some firearm experts who have looked for such cases say they have found few. Instead, experts like Massad Ayoob, a police captain who is director of the Lethal Force Institute, a training academy in Concord, N.H., say they have found more instances where officers with magazine safeties avoided being shot with their own guns by ejecting the magazine during a struggle.

''It acts as a kind of kill button,'' preventing the gun from being fired, Captain Ayoob said."

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/03/19/us/gu ... .html?_r=0
Sometimes... you get on here, and just know, you're dealing with "that guy." All your efforts to be, and sound reasonable, are useless. And there are a lot of those guys on blueline.

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby Dave Brown » Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:56 am

Always an interesting debate. But that article is both inflammatory and wrong on so many counts.

For one, the S&W Sigma pistol they laud so much is widely regarded as garbage. It was Smith's first foray into polymer pistols and is not only regarded as a failure but they were also sued by Glock for copyright violations because they copied some of the parts so closely, they would drop in and function in the other manufacturer's pistol.

For another, if you need a magazine disconnect to stop a kid from accidentally shooting themselves, then you have already done something really really stupid and probably should never own guns.

Plus, I don't consider anything Mas says with any credibility. He has been proved wrong many times, and his "Ayoob" method of holding a flashlight has been widely ridiculed as a dumb solution to a non-existent problem. (Hold the flashlight at an upward angle in your hand so you blind the bad guy just before you shoot him ... assuming the bad guy is standing in EXACTLY the right spot ... is EXACTLY the right distance away ... is fortunate - or unfortunate - enough to be EXACTLY the right height ... and, incidentally, is standing perfectly still.)

He is considered FAR from an "expert." His studies on terminal ballistics have been widely discredited by the entire firearms industry.

I'm pretty far from an expert either, but I have this one theory in life about stories and using anecdotal evidence to guide firearms design or training techniques:

Just because an incident happened once and then the story was retold a thousand times, does not make it happen a thousand times.

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby LAWDOG » Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:10 am

I'm torn on the magazine disconnect. If the magazine is not seated properly, no bang. If you are in a fight and you are losing your firearm, dropping the magazine may prevent the one round from being used against you. That said, one of my firearms instructors demonstrated that if the stars align just right, the mag disconnect can fail, so you can't rely on it as a 100% effective option.

Well over 100 years ago, steamships began to replace sailing ships, but people were too afraid to make long voyages on ships without sails. People thought that if the engines quit, and without sails, the ships would just be dead in the water. So shipbuilders put masts with sails on steam ships. The masts and sails that were pretty much useless because the ships were made of steel and the sails were not big enough to do any good. But having the sails just made people feel better.
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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby Dave Brown » Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:38 am

LAWDOG wrote:I'm torn on the magazine disconnect. If the magazine is not seated properly, no bang. If you are in a fight and you are losing your firearm, dropping the magazine may prevent the one round from being used against you.


I simply challenge people to show me ONE documented situation where an officer was able to hit their magazine release in the middle of a struggle, and it saved their life. I have heard this story a thousand times. I have never seen documented evidence that this "plan of action" has ever actually worked.

Just because this myth has been told ten thousand times over does not mean it happened ten thousand times.

Plus, the premise of the article is that all handguns should have magazine disconnects to prevent kids from having more accidents with handguns. Well, if a magazine disconnect is the only thing that prevented an accident with a kid and a handgun, that parent should NEVER BE ALLOWED TO OWN GUNS.

Firearms carry with them the inherent weight of responsibility 24 hours a day. Some people may think they have that, but they don't. They just shouldn't have guns, period. Sometimes, a good guy with a gun ... is just not all that bright.

This is why I have always believed that we don't change attitude problems or address training issues with mechanical solutions.

As for the no bang issue, the fact is that ANY handgun can no go bang, if the mag is not seated after a reload; a round misfires, or - far more common - an officer forgets to chamber a round. This is why I will always believe that one should spend less time worrying about training people to do some dumb move in an effort to try a technique that has never actually worked in real life, and more time on immediate action drills and training officers to ALWAYS load their pistol from the slide-back condition, holster it, remove the magazine, and top up one more round. After the P.R.O.V.E. procedure, that pistol is already slide-back. Insert the magazine, close the action with a proper overhand grasp, holster it, remove the magazine, top it up, and reinsert.

This accomplishes three things:
#1 - It ensures one can't forget to chamber a round;
#2 - it provides an extra double-check that the round is chambered; (No "press-check" needed. If you can't fit one more round in the mag, then you have forgotten to chamber the first one.)
#3 - it reinforces the action of chambering the round with a proper overhand grasp to the back of the slide.

As for sails on steam ships, all I can is point out that just because they thought it was a good idea at the time, didn't make it right. I see people on TV chambering a round by using the slide stop all the time. That doesn't make it right either.

So, yeah, I'm anal, humourless and often clueless. :D :D :D :D

But, dammit, I want to bury that old myth once and for all.

A magazine disconnect has never worked to prevent a bad guy from shooting someone. It should never have been installed, it should never be relied upon and it should never be taught as a technique.

Training works. THAT is what should be relied upon, not mechanical "solutions."

To continue my friend's analogy, perhaps they should have realized at the time that a couple of sails on a steam ship would have done nothing and dropped the idea a lot sooner.

But, as I said, always an interesting debate nonetheless.


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