S&W 5946 R.I.P

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melom
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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby melom » Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:16 am

I would think that they would pick a polymer gun like the P320 over the P226.

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby RGW » Sat May 02, 2015 12:04 am

melom wrote:I would think that they would pick a polymer gun like the P320 over the P226.


Yeah, the 320 is advertising for $500 retail right now, which is a more reasonable price than a 226.

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby Longarm9 » Sat May 02, 2015 12:59 am

wicked_police wrote:Calling a magazine disconnect a 'safety' feature is like calling a cement barrier an emergency brake.

Unless the current attitude from the armorers shop and some in procurement changes, the rcmp will never select a gun for the general membership that can only be disassembled after the trigger has been pulled. Which makes the Glock a non-starter.


Ha, totally true about the mag disconnect.

Technically, the S&W M&P doesn't need the trigger to be pulled because they supply a tool that can effect the same function without touching the trigger, so it should still be a viable choice.
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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby Dave Brown » Sat May 02, 2015 8:49 pm

Technically, one could teach officers to PROVE the firearms safe before disassembly.

At what point does it become necessary to install a big funnel on the roof of a patrol car leading down into the gas tank instead of just teaching people to remove the gas cap before filling up their cars?

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby Homer » Sat May 02, 2015 10:37 pm

Dave Brown wrote:Technically, one could teach officers to PROVE the firearms safe before disassembly.

But that's part of the CFSC. We don't want police officers to get firearms licenses, because then they'll practice away from work. And they may practice the wrong thing and that would be a liability.
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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby Longarm9 » Fri May 08, 2015 4:22 pm

Dave Brown wrote:Technically, one could teach officers to PROVE the firearms safe before disassembly.

At what point does it become necessary to install a big funnel on the roof of a patrol car leading down into the gas tank instead of just teaching people to remove the gas cap before filling up their cars?


You get no argument from me. You should point this out to policy makers who eliminate awesome handguns from competitions because of such features. Don't think they'll listen though, unfortunately.
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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby FedCO » Sat May 09, 2015 6:30 pm

While I love the 5900 series pistol, it would be nice to see an updated pistol that could take Tac lights etc. Aim no Glock fan but at least they're cheap and parts are easy to find etc. Alaska State Troopers use G22. RCMP could use a G17 or go SW MP 9mm which is a good pistol. In dream world they should go Sig Sauer P320 9mm full size or carry.

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby frozenmountie » Sat May 09, 2015 7:12 pm

I see your point... but when you're shooting with one hand (because the other hand is tied up with a flashlight) your accuracy drops considerably. I do a bunch of shooting with my 5946 and whenever I shoot one handed, my groupings get a lot bigger. (This coming from a guy who shoots 250/250 on the course of fire and goes to the range twice a week.) This is scary, considering that probably 70% of the time I draw out on people is at night.

I would be A LOT more confident with my pistol at night if I had a mounted light. Also, a mounted light permits you to use your support side hand without trying to juggle a flashlight while opening a door, moving a weapon of opportunity to a safe place, etc.

I do agree that a lot of members would start using their pistols when they should just use their flashlights though.

Maybe having an "approved" light for the pistol and then having to qualify with it would make sense before being able to carry it. BFIs could then take on the responsibility of mentoring other members on the appropriate usage of the mounted light.

Anyway, just my opinion. I'm open to other people's insight though.
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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby FedCO » Sun May 10, 2015 9:59 am

VanSmack wrote:
FedCO wrote:While I love the 5900 series pistol, it would be nice to see an updated pistol that could take Tac lights etc.


That alone would be reason enough for them not to get green-lit. I could imagine the collective heart attack that some board room in Ottawa would have at the thought of some member in Pukatawagan deciding to push out his own dime to put a laser or some other tactical shit on his issued pistol.

Besides, for the overwhelming majority of members, putting a tactical light under the barrel is going to reduce draw out time, or have them pointing the barrel of the gun where they're looking with the flashlight, which increases the possibility of accidentally shooting someone. We're talking two or three posts above about how members can't be trusted to clear a pistol before taking the thing apart but somehow telling them to point their loaded guns off into the dark is a good idea?

If you're not on ERT it's probably not something you really, really need that a regular flashlight won't do every bit as well.


It's really not as complex as your making it out to be. First it's a mounted light once affixed you don't take it off. So the Armoury can install it. Second Tac lights balance the firearm even more putting weight on end of barrel which keeps recoil down even more. Shooting with one hand on gun and one on light is stupid, horrible aim and is a risk to officer safety. Look down to USA. It could work if we put thought, did training. We need to train out members. I'd rather have a light and allow me to clear rooms more confidently. The light is more for when those times you need your gun out but now the light is on your pistol. You would still carry another light for other times. Tac lights are great tool.

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby Whi_Tan » Sun May 10, 2015 3:27 pm

Seems to be fine for Barrie PS. Great that they are acting as guinea pigs for the rest of us.

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby Dave Brown » Sun May 10, 2015 3:39 pm

I tend to have confidence in good training and good officers.

This is why I personally fully agree with FedCO and what Barrie PS has done. I like the idea of a weapon-mounted light for situations where the gun is out anyway, and a tactical light carried on your person as per normal for when it isn't.

Train people properly, set standards high, and people will surprise you.

Set low standards, treat officers like children, equip everything you issue with the equivalent of child-safety locks such as magazine disconnects, and officers sink to their level of training and how they are treated.

I have been teaching and writing about flashlight shooting techniques for many years; the 'just okay' techniques, the BAD techniques (the 'FBI' method) and the REALLY REALLY BAD techniques (the "Ayoob' method.) The truth is that there is no really good method to hold a flashlight and a gun at the same time. In reality, the best flashlight method in the world may be forgotten the first moment bullets start flying in your direction. Unless you have time to prepare your grip, flashlight shooting is simply one-handed shooting. Nothing fancier than that. Hold the flashlight where it is right now in your support hand; draw and respond with your strong hand. Keep it simple, and you get to go home at the end of your shift.

This is why I support weapon-mounted lights, together with good training that treats officers as adults, not children. This is also why I will never support magazine disconnects, or requirements to not have to pull the trigger to disassemble the gun.

Keep it simple: PROVE a handgun safe every time; load only from the slide-back position; never use the slide stop for anything other than locking the slide back to PROVE it safe; chamber the round using a proper overhand grasp (or pinch grasp if that is the way you were taught); make sure your support hand ALWAYS moves in the opposite direction of the slide; and do it the same way as your emergency manipulation skills every day. These are the tenets of good training.

Maybe it is time to require all officers have the CFSC/CRFSC before they apply? It might not be a bad idea. After all, the common sense approach and the reinforcement of the basic technical skills is not just an important part of that training, it is also MUCH superior to some of the commonly-accepted U.S.-based "rules" of gun safety that should never have become "rules."

U.S. firearms instructor: "And, rule #2 is to never point your firearm at anything you are not prepared to destroy."

Student: "Uh ... but we are pointed at the wall. I don't want to destroy the wall. I dry-fire in front of my TV. I don't want to destroy my TV. If I need to look down the barrel after I clean it, I don't want to destroy myself. I cover a suspect with my gun: I don't want to destroy that suspect."

U.S. firearms instructor: "Doesn't matter. Those are the RULES."

Student: "So, you are teaching rules that both us and you yourself are going to be breaking in literally the next five minutes, and you expect us to respect it as a hard and fast 'rule'??"

U.S. firearms instructor: "Jeff Cooper says those are the RULES."

Student: (under his breath) "Jeff Cooper is an idiot."


Now compare that to the CFSC:
Rule #2 - Control the muzzle direction at all times.

See my point? Treat officers like adults, teach "rules" that make sense, be consistent, keep it simple and lo and behold, they (mostly) behave like adults.

Or maybe I am just dreaming?

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby FedCO » Sun May 10, 2015 8:11 pm

Whi_Tan wrote:Seems to be fine for Barrie PS. Great that they are acting as guinea pigs for the rest of us.

Nice! What kit they using>

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby FedCO » Sun May 10, 2015 8:16 pm

Dave Brown wrote:I tend to have confidence in good training and good officers.

This is why I personally fully agree with FedCO and what Barrie PS has done. I like the idea of a weapon-mounted light for situations where the gun is out anyway, and a tactical light carried on your person as per normal for when it isn't.

Train people properly, set standards high, and people will surprise you.

Set low standards, treat officers like children, equip everything you issue with the equivalent of child-safety locks such as magazine disconnects, and officers sink to their level of training and how they are treated.

I have been teaching and writing about flashlight shooting techniques for many years; the 'just okay' techniques, the BAD techniques (the 'FBI' method) and the REALLY REALLY BAD techniques (the "Ayoob' method.) The truth is that there is no really good method to hold a flashlight and a gun at the same time. In reality, the best flashlight method in the world will be tossed out the window the first moment bullets start flying in your direction. Unless you have time to prepare your grip, flashlight shooting is simply one-handed shooting. Nothing fancier than that. Hold the flashlight where it is right now in your support hand; draw and respond with your strong hand. Keep it simple, and you get to go home at the end of your shift.

This is why I support weapon-mounted lights, together with good training that treats officers as adults, not children. This is also why I will never support magazine disconnects, or requirements to not have to pull the trigger to disassemble the gun.

Keep it simple: PROVE a handgun safe every time; load only from the slide-back position; never use the slide stop for anything other than locking the slide back to PROVE it safe; chamber the round using a proper overhand grasp (or pinch grasp if that is the way you were taught); make sure your support hand ALWAYS moves in the opposite direction of the slide; and do it the same way as your emergency manipulation skills every day. These are the tenets of good training.

Maybe it is time to require all officers have the CFSC/CRFSC before they apply? It might not be a bad idea. After all, the common sense approach and the reinforcement of the basic technical skills is not just an important part of that training, it is also MUCH superior to some of the commonly-accepted U.S.-based "rules" of gun safety that should never have become "rules."

U.S. firearms instructor: "And, rule #2 is to never point your firearm at anything you are not prepared to destroy."

Student: "Uh ... but we are pointed at the wall. I don't want to destroy the wall. I dry-fire in front of my TV. I don't want to destroy my TV. If I need to look down the barrel after I clean it, I don't want to destroy myself. I cover a suspect with my gun: I don't want to destroy that suspect."

U.S. firearms instructor: "Doesn't matter. Those are the RULES."

Student: "So, you are teaching rules that both us and you yourself are going to be breaking in literally the next five minutes, and you expect us to respect it as a hard and fast 'rule'??"

U.S. firearms instructor: "Jeff Cooper says those are the RULES."

Student: (under his breath) "Jeff Cooper is an idiot."


Now compare that to the CFSC:
Rule #2 - Control the muzzle direction at all times.

See my point? Treat officers like adults, teach "rules" that make sense, be consistent, keep it simple and lo and behold, they (mostly) behave like adults.

Or maybe I am just dreaming?

I agree. Maybe CBSA is on to something forcing applicants to have their RPAL to apply. I can see why as they see all kind of firearms at the border and well the CFSC is a good program. It wouldn't hurt to have it before applying to a force.

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Re: S&W 5946 R.I.P

Postby frozenmountie » Sun May 10, 2015 8:53 pm

Yeah, that would be great. They'd be able to spend less time on firearms basics and more time on improving your shooting during training at depot. :pistols:
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