R.C.M.P. /D.F.O./CW.S. Course of Fire

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Greg W
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R.C.M.P. /D.F.O./CW.S. Course of Fire

Postby Greg W » Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:58 pm

My Department made the transistion from revolver to pistol last summer. It was a long time coming but came with good things. We adopted the .40 S&W Sig P226R DAK and Sarifaland 6070 holsters. Two of us went to Depot a few years ago for the B.F.I. course, and we made the decision to adopt the R.C.M.P course of fire, which is used by several other agencys as well. Several of our officers had difficulty at first with it, as the pistol and C.O.F. was new to them, but in the end most did quite well. The majority of our staff are very happy with the new sidearm and equipment.

With qualifacations coming up this spring and summer we are starting to hear some rumblings from the people who had difficulty. They are making the claim that they are hearing that some agencies are more lenient with the standard than we were.

The standard says that you must score 200/250 (80%) to pass, with a minimum score of 66% on each of the five stages. If they fail a stage or stages and score less than 200, they have to re-shoot the entire C.O.F. If a shooter is able to score 200 but fails up to two stages, he or she is allowed to reshoot the failed stage(s). If they fail a stage a second time, they will get remedial training prior to shooting the entire C.O.F. again.

They are telling us (me) that some agencies allow their Officers to shoot each stage until they pass it, then go on to shoot each stage in the same manner. I have personally never heard of this happening, and have asked several R.C.M.P. and D.F.O. officers I know about it. All are shooting it according to the standard.

My question is- Does anyone know if the C.O.F. is being shot as I described in the last paragraph? Thanks.
What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight - it's the size of the fight in the dog.
Dwight D. Eisenhower, speech to the Republican National Committee, January 31, 1958

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Gard
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Re: R.C.M.P. /D.F.O./CW.S. Course of Fire

Postby Gard » Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:16 am

Instructors don't have the authority to change the course of fire. Anyone "passing" in the way you have described hasn't actually qualified.

You can explain to your shooters that you don't know what other outfits do but for liability reasons you stick to the approved course of fire.

As a BFI you should know that any questions regarding the qualifications of an officer involved in a shooting will come directly back to you during the investigative and court phases. So bear in mind that:

1. It won't be a secret if you alter the course of fire. People on the firing line will know; and

2. Any shooter who lacks the integrity to actually challenge themselves and who wants you to change the COF won't hesitate to throw you under the bus to save themselves if it ever comes down to an inquiry into a shooting involving them.

Do your BFI job with a clear conscience and you won't go wrong.
He who allows oppression, shares the crime.
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Greg W
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Re: R.C.M.P. /D.F.O./CW.S. Course of Fire

Postby Greg W » Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:44 pm

Gard wrote:Instructors don't have the authority to change the course of fire. Anyone "passing" in the way you have described hasn't actually qualified.

You can explain to your shooters that you don't know what other outfits do but for liability reasons you stick to the approved course of fire.

As a BFI you should know that any questions regarding the qualifications of an officer involved in a shooting will come directly back to you during the investigative and court phases. So bear in mind that:

1. It won't be a secret if you alter the course of fire. People on the firing line will know; and

2. Any shooter who lacks the integrity to actually challenge themselves and who wants you to change the COF won't hesitate to throw you under the bus to save themselves if it ever comes down to an inquiry into a shooting involving them.

Do your BFI job with a clear conscience and you won't go wrong.


Good advice. Thanks very much. Anyone else?
What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight - it's the size of the fight in the dog.
Dwight D. Eisenhower, speech to the Republican National Committee, January 31, 1958

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Mark S
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Re: R.C.M.P. /D.F.O./CW.S. Course of Fire

Postby Mark S » Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:48 am

If you can't shoot 200 on that course of fire, you have no business carrying a gun around in public. Tell your whiners to learn to shoot and stop worrying about ways around that.
Welcome to Winnipeg. We were born here, what's your excuse?

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Re: R.C.M.P. /D.F.O./CW.S. Course of Fire

Postby bartlett_r » Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:54 pm

Striker wrote:
Gard wrote:Instructors don't have the authority to change the course of fire. Anyone "passing" in the way you have described hasn't actually qualified.

You can explain to your shooters that you don't know what other outfits do but for liability reasons you stick to the approved course of fire.

As a BFI you should know that any questions regarding the qualifications of an officer involved in a shooting will come directly back to you during the investigative and court phases. So bear in mind that:

1. It won't be a secret if you alter the course of fire. People on the firing line will know; and

2. Any shooter who lacks the integrity to actually challenge themselves and who wants you to change the COF won't hesitate to throw you under the bus to save themselves if it ever comes down to an inquiry into a shooting involving them.

Do your BFI job with a clear conscience and you won't go wrong.

What he said.
I never have and never will change our course of fire to make it easier for an officer to pass. Our course isn't that hard to begin with.
It sounds like your problem children are trying to hold you responsible for their lack of motivation to improve their skills with a very important tool of the trade.
Stick with the approved course of fire and if they don't qualify then the onus is on them to fix the problem.
If I fail an officer then they get remedial training and shoot the complete course of fire again.
are they able to requal as many times as they need, until they pass, or is there a limit?
alix

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Re: R.C.M.P. /D.F.O./CW.S. Course of Fire

Postby wicked_police » Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:24 pm

Wow.
I've never heard of that kind of problem. People crying about the 'difficulty' and then saying other agencies relax the standard??

As it's been already said, it's your integrity, and your ass on the line if something bad happens.
And it goes up the line. And you can bet the the guys at TTS will say they followed the CTS when they delivered or oversaw the BFI course that you took.

We don't deviate from the CTS. It's what will save our butts when, not if, someone screws the pooch and decides to blame someone else instead of taking responsibility for their problem.

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Re: R.C.M.P. /D.F.O./CW.S. Course of Fire

Postby Greg W » Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:12 pm

I was able to make contact with several members from the different agencies who use the same course of fire. Some were rank and file members and some were range officers and firearms instructors. None of them could confirm the rumors I (we)had been hearing. That is good! I used their information and the comments that I received here to write a memo to our manager of law enforcement. He was relieved to find that the claim could not be substantiated in any way, so things will stay as they should be.

Thanks everyone for your help.
What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight - it's the size of the fight in the dog.
Dwight D. Eisenhower, speech to the Republican National Committee, January 31, 1958


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