Sights and Police Practices?

Discussion for firearms and less-lethal equipment.
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Bitterman
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Re: Sights and Police Practices?

Postby Bitterman » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:19 pm

Grassynarrows wrote:75 m is carbine or shotgun range


Carbine maybe... Shotgun, no way.
If you need to take a shot at 75 m call out some one with a bolt gun... Just to be safe ;)
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Re: Sights and Police Practices?

Postby Grassynarrows » Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:56 pm

I carry the 223 and 12 ga with me on the road.In a pinch with nothing else a slug will work at 75 m.
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Re: Sights and Police Practices?

Postby Bitterman » Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:28 pm

Grassynarrows wrote:In a pinch with nothing else a slug will work at 75 m.




I dare ya.... :mrgreen:
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Re: Sights and Police Practices?

Postby seabas » Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:09 pm

Bitterman wrote:
Grassynarrows wrote:In a pinch with nothing else a slug will work at 75 m.




I dare ya.... :mrgreen:


I don't get the dare ya part. If that's all I have besides the pistol, you better believe it'll do.
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Re: Sights and Police Practices?

Postby Bitterman » Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:17 pm

seabas wrote:
Bitterman wrote:
Grassynarrows wrote:In a pinch with nothing else a slug will work at 75 m.




I dare ya.... :mrgreen:


I don't get the dare ya part. If that's all I have besides the pistol, you better believe it'll do.



What I mean is.... with a smooth bore 18" shotgun I seriously doubt many people could hit a man size target at 75m.
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Re: Sights and Police Practices?

Postby Dave Brown » Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:30 am

Bitterman wrote:What I mean is.... with a smooth bore 18" shotgun I seriously doubt many people could hit a man size target at 75m.


With good training that understands the response physiology of the human body to sudden stress, not only is such a shot possible, but a member of these forums has done exactly that shot (and made it home alive at the end of his shift - rule #1 of police work.)

Interestingly enough - great, now I sound like Cliff Clavin - barrel length has very little bearing on accuracy. Other than a slightly longer sight radius, there is no advantage to a longer barrel over a shorter barrel. Most of the gunpowder is burned up in 14 inches of barrel length so anything more than that is just wasted energy. In practical terms though, an 18 or 20 inch barrel is an ideal compromise between fast handling and reasonable sight radius. One can shoot trap with an 18 inch barrel with no problem; it's just that those long distance shots in trap are tough to make with the shorter sight radius. Plus, the longer barrel tracks smoother through the sky. However, when it comes to skeet, the shorter distances and faster shooting on multiple targets make the shorter barrel ideal.

When it comes to police work, 18 to 20 inches is the best length for the possible intended target.

As for smooth bore, aftermarket rifled barrels actually add very little accuracy, and most slug shooters are well served by well designed slugs from smooth barrels. Plus, smooth bores give you more options, including everything from buckshot for smaller pest control, to intermediate-force projectiles like the sock rounds.

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Re: Sights and Police Practices?

Postby Mark S » Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:25 am

Bitterman wrote:What I mean is.... with a smooth bore 18" shotgun I seriously doubt many people could hit a man size target at 75m.


I disagree. We all shot slug at 100m, and I don't remember the ratio of people who were hitting the target or not, but it wasn't like only a few were hitting it. The best shot got to shoot the MP5, and he had 5/5 in the 5 ring.

I've shot at 50 and 100 m on the range, just for kicks, and didn't do too badly. I'd do it for real if I had no other option and a clear back-stop. They'd be hail-mary shots, but what have you got to lose?
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Re: Sights and Police Practices?

Postby Bitterman » Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:31 pm

Okay... okay.... maybe the barrel on my 12ga is bent... :mrgreen:

Personally... every time I hit a distant target (in competition) with my 12ga and a slug I have to go to great lengths to look as if "Yeah, I meant to do that" While inside my head I'm thinkin'... "Holy s***, I hit it! :mrgreen:
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Re: Sights and Police Practices?

Postby Mark S » Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:14 pm

We have rifle sights too, not a bead, so maybe that's the difference.
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Re: Sights and Police Practices?

Postby Bitterman » Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:47 pm

Striker wrote:
Bitterman wrote:A lot can depend on your pistol/ammo.
Of course if you're practicing your shooting skilz for a potential life and death self defence situation... Forget using your sights. You won't have time to use 'em :D

I hope you were joking!


Joking... No.
Hell... even in silly defensive pistol matches i seldom use my sights as if target or "bullseye" shooting...
I've been on courses were the use of sights was expressly un-taught.
Think of it... Many armed confrontations occurr at very close ranges... That coupled with stress and load you're about to dump into your pants pretty much puts your fine motor skills and such out the window.
To paraphrase the last instructor I had: "When faced with a lethal force situation the object is to get your weaopn out, send rounds to the threat and get away from there as fast as you can..." No mention of sights :mrgreen:

Of course for me all this BS is academic...
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Re: Sights and Police Practices?

Postby Gard » Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:37 pm

TackleberryG22 wrote:As was said, it's not a perfect world......

"when in fight , front sight" applicable for "common engagement distances" engaging while obtaining cover, advancing/retreating for example (front sight on "target" as fast as you can then squeeze)


To explain the picture above, help remember the requirements for a good sight picture...... "equal height, equal light" Front sight is lined up across the top of rear sight and front sight is centred in rear sight allowing same distance or light on both sides of front sight.

If you want to start shooting remember one thing for the first couple of months, SLOW & SMOOTH with repitition will come smooth controled speed.


And Dave, I'll take that senario for $500 please....... "What should you not do by yourself with your sidearm?"

Remember shoot straight, shoot safe, muzzle control & trigger finger on frame


Once again. We're talking about shooting paper targets on a range. Not the shootout featured in your wet dreams every night.
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Re: Sights and Police Practices?

Postby Dave Brown » Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:23 pm

Bitterman wrote:Hell... even in silly defensive pistol matches i seldom use my sights as if target or "bullseye" shooting...
I've been on courses were the use of sights was expressly un-taught.
Think of it... Many armed confrontations occurr at very close ranges... That coupled with stress and load you're about to dump into your pants pretty much puts your fine motor skills and such out the window.
To paraphrase the last instructor I had: "When faced with a lethal force situation the object is to get your weaopn out, send rounds to the threat and get away from there as fast as you can..."


Let me paraphrase another instructor. "When faced with a lethal threat, the ONLY object is to make it home alive." In order to make it home alive, one must be able to deal with all the technical skills on an unconscious level because the conscious mind will be too busy with other stuff. That includes the six basic handgun skills of: grip, stance, sight picture, trigger control, the draw and the reload. ALL must be automatic.

In real life encounters, officers survive because of good training, NOT because they don't use their sights. Unless the threat is contact distance, one MUST use the sights; one cannot leave their survival to chance. The only complicating factor is that very few officers will actually remember using their sights. It's not that they didn't use them; it's that they don't REMEMBER using them.

And that means their technical skills were there on a subconscious level when they needed them.

Perhaps there is a connection between an inability to hit a silhouette at 75 meters with a shotgun and a belief that one doesn't need to use the sights in fast encounters.

And I too have shot the odd practical pistol match, and won the odd trophy ... and not one of them was because I didn't use the sights and could miss faster than anyone else.

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Re: Sights and Police Practices?

Postby TackleberryG22 » Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:04 am

I agree Striker Dave has it said more with articulation,

I'm waiting for Guard's comments about Dave's wet dreams now.....



Contiuous practice & concious rehersal on the range = a default level of performance when the chips are down and time to respond.

I'm reminded of an article I read in a LEO publication from the US a number of years ago, It talked about this exact principle, the idea of "Train as You Fight, Fight As You Train"
A lone officer was envoled in a deadly force encounter in a crowded parking lot. I beleive it was an armed robbery, maybe not, regardless, the subject obviously had no intention of being taken into custody, due to the multiple rounds exchanged.

When all was said and done, Subject was incopacitated on the ground and the copper was breathing heavily but not hurt. During the investigation the officer was asked of course how many rds out? and any reloads? He couldn't answer. However, witnesses to the encounter repeatedly report hearing the officers yell "Front Sight Squeeze!!" and as the encounter continued the officer continued screaming "Front Sight Squeeze!!!" There was a reload in there as well.

It wasn't a coinsident that the outcome turned out the way it did.

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