Sights and Police Practices?

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Vonn
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Sights and Police Practices?

Postby Vonn » Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:30 am

Question for RCMP members.....

With target shooting and practices - I suppose this is a sighting question really.
There are two different ways of sighting in your target - some people choose to have the sight slightly above the target while others choose to have their sights slightly below the target. I'm not sure which is the best way, and which is the appropriate way that is currently being taught at Depot. Heck I'm not even sure how to properly ask the question....
I don't want to learn bad habits, so I wish to go to the range and practice the 'proper' way.
Anyone on the board care to answer from the 'Depot' way???
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Vonn
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Re: Sights and Police Practices?

Postby Vonn » Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:02 am

Casey Jones wrote:as i understand it, it's all in how you shoot. i have a tendancy to shoot a little high, despite my aim being bang on (as it looks to me, anyways). it was suggested to me by a firearms instructor at OPC from barrie ps to aim a little low (towards the lower line of the vital area rectangle) and my shots were all perfect after that.

i'm no gun guy, but my suggestion is to see how you shoot, then make logical little adjustments here and there.

(sorry.. didn't notice the 'question for RCMP members' part until after. it may still help, though!)



Nope that's fine thank you for replying. I just figured it's better not to develop any bad shooting habits before getting to depot and i'm sooo wanting to try out my firearm lol. I still have to sight it in before having a bit of fun target shooting. :)
My husband has a way of shooting that works well for him - he likes it when aiming the sights line up with the target and that way he knows exactly where he's aiming and hitting (not sure i'm explaining this correctly so pardon me)
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Re: Sights and Police Practices?

Postby Bitterman » Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:36 pm

A lot can depend on your pistol/ammo.
Change ammo and your point of impact may change...
I take it that your using fixed/non adjustable sights so you will have to adjust where you aim in order to get hits where you want them.
Of course if you're practicing your shooting skilz for a potential life and death self defence situation... Forget using your sights. You won't have time to use 'em :D
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Re: Sights and Police Practices?

Postby Bald Man » Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:56 pm

Depends on the distances you are shooting at. Pistol ammo such as the 9mm or 40 cal are not designed for long distance shooting because they are not high velocity rounds. If you trying to hit something at 75 yards you will need to aim your sights slightly above the target as the bullet at that point will fall on to the target. When shooting at normal pistol distances you should be able to aim just below and hit centre give or take depending on how the pistols shoots. You should be able to se what you are aiming at. A good way to picture how a bullet travels is the same as throwing a football or any type of ball. The ball will leave you hand and start traveling upward. By the time it its it's mark it will have taveled in an arc going up and then down. Bullets are the same.

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Re: Sights and Police Practices?

Postby Mark S » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:03 pm

I like to put my sights slightly right on target, so that I hit it. I'm not sure how else to explain it. Vonn what kind of gun and sights are you talking about?

Mine looks something like:

Image
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Re: Sights and Police Practices?

Postby Vonn » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:13 pm

A variety lol.

My husband likes to use the new S&W 40 calibre. I have the styer 9 mm

Others we want to play around with 357 magnum, another kind of revolver (don't recall what that one is), 308 rifle, .22 browning - just to name a few.....
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Re: Sights and Police Practices?

Postby Bitterman » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:43 pm

Mark S wrote:I like to put my sights slightly right on target, so that I hit it. I'm not sure how else to explain it. Vonn what kind of gun and sights are you talking about?

Mine looks something like:

Image



That is a perfect "sight picture"
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Re: Sights and Police Practices?

Postby seabas » Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:09 pm

My advice is wait until you get there as you won't pick up any bad habits. You'll get plenty of instruction and even time to shoot. I'm not by any means saying that the Depot FTU is the end-all of firearm instruction, but you have to keep in mind that the 5946 is a fairly heavy handgun, and may behave a lot differently than what you may fire prior to getting there.
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Re: Sights and Police Practices?

Postby Dave Brown » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:03 am

Two wrongs don't make a right. If you traditionally slice to the right when playing golf, you shouldn't compensate by playing the left side of the fairway.

Sights on most handguns today (and certainly ALL police handguns) are designed to hit point of aim at center-mass hold. If they don't, either the sights are misadjusted or the shooter is not aiming correctly. In all my years of experience, I would say it is 5% former and 95% latter.

Don't listen to old school firearms instructors who still teach the "six o'clock hold." It is outdated, and is only applicable to Olympic-style "bullseye" shooting, where the targets are always a fixed size and at a fixed distance. Unless you are going to convince the bad guy to stand at exactly the right distance, it ain't never going to work on the street, which is why modern handgun sights are designed for center-of-mass aiming.

If you need to deliberately aim high or low with a police-issue handgun at normal combat ranges, YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG.

And while there may be limited situations in which one needs to shoot a handgun at 75 meters, bullet drop at 75 meters is actually measured in centimeters, NOT meters. One does not need to hold high at 75 meters. If you need to hold more than 1 or 2 centimeters high at long distances, you are again doing something wrong.

It is hard to convince people that they need to hold within only one or two centimeters of center-of-mass at long distances like 50 or 75 meters, but it is simply a scientific fact. Look up the ballistics charts of bullet performance at 75 meters. Most people THINK they need to hold high because they don't have the absolutely perfect trigger control needed to make this shot.

Sorry, but I have little tolerance for old school firearms instructors who are teaching outdated techniques to future law enforcement officers who are then going to have to unlearn all this shit and then relearn the proper way once they hit the police academy. For example, most shooting ranges have one of those "target analysis charts" on the wall. They are crap; they only apply to one-handed bullseye shooting.

You may have seen them; they divide a target up into about 10 different slices, and then tell you what you are "doing wrong" if your group tends to go into one of those areas. Ignore these charts.

A police officer can only make four basic errors. (Or combinations of four errors.)
1) If your group is low, you are not controlling the trigger. You need lots of dry-fire practice to overcome this.
2) If your group is to the left OR right, you are squeezing the gun too much in your strong hand. Relax the strong hand and squeeze more with the weak hand.
3) If your group is high, you are not focusing on the front sight. Get your eye focus on the sight, not the target.
4) If your group is all over the place - assuming you know the basic principles of marksmanship - you are not concentrating enough. It is time to take a break.

If your firearms instructor is teaching you any different than the above, you need to either go somewhere else or stop learning bad habits. Once you get into the police academy, LISTEN TO YOUR POLICE FIREARMS INSTRUCTOR. Quite frankly, this is one of the reasons most police agencies do NOT want potential officers taking handgun lessons from civilian instructors who may not know police techniques. Very few civilian instructors can teach you how to stay alive. Even so-called 'practical pistol' instructors should be avoided. They may be able to teach you how to enter a room with ten hostile targets and 50 bystanders, and shoot all the bad guys as fast and as accurately as possible, tactically using cover and reloads as necessary ... but not one single one would ever give you the RIGHT answer to a scenario where you have an armed robbery with ten armed assailants and an unknown number of bad guys.

And every police academy or BFI firearms instructor will be able to tell you the CORRECT response to the above scenario.

(And I am not about to tell you the answer. Ask your police firearms instructor.)

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Re: Sights and Police Practices?

Postby Mark S » Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:10 pm

When there's a bad guy standing 75m away from you? Sure its not common, and to be honest we never trained for it, but it could happen. If it can happen to ERT, why not us? After all, we go to the same calls ERT does, except we get there sooner and don't have the nice equipment they have.
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Re: Sights and Police Practices?

Postby Gard » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:03 pm

Bitterman wrote:
Mark S wrote:I like to put my sights slightly right on target, so that I hit it. I'm not sure how else to explain it. Vonn what kind of gun and sights are you talking about?

Mine looks something like:

Image



That is a perfect "sight picture"
Unfortunately it ain't a perfect world ;)


He's talking about range shooting. That's exactly how it should look when you look down your sights.
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Re: Sights and Police Practices?

Postby TackleberryG22 » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:28 pm

As was said, it's not a perfect world......

"when in fight , front sight" applicable for "common engagement distances" engaging while obtaining cover, advancing/retreating for example (front sight on "target" as fast as you can then squeeze)


To explain the picture above, help remember the requirements for a good sight picture...... "equal height, equal light" Front sight is lined up across the top of rear sight and front sight is centred in rear sight allowing same distance or light on both sides of front sight.

If you want to start shooting remember one thing for the first couple of months, SLOW & SMOOTH with repitition will come smooth controled speed.


And Dave, I'll take that senario for $500 please....... "What should you not do by yourself with your sidearm?"

Remember shoot straight, shoot safe, muzzle control & trigger finger on frame
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Re: Sights and Police Practices?

Postby Dave Brown » Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:18 am

Tack wins.

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Re: Sights and Police Practices?

Postby Grassynarrows » Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:15 am

75 m is carbine or shotgun range
Be professional and methodical. Take ownership of the situation. Look, listen and understand what is really being said and you will never have to walk away from an incident wondering if you missed something. Make every contact with the public count.


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