9 mm. - 40 or 45?

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VoteQuimby
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Postby VoteQuimby » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:00 am

INTERCEPTOR wrote:
My feelings are; I would like to have the first shot that hits the bad guy either spin him around or take him off his feet.


That effect only happens in the movies. Actual bullets pass through so quick that not enough energy is transferred to the target's mass to do that. Defensive shooting relies on tissue damage causing blood loss and damage to the central nervous system. One shot stops are very rare unless a huge nerve bundle is hit like the spinal column or the brain. Even a heart shot can leave an adrenaline charged bad guy enough time to do some damage to you.

Dave already explained the importance of shot placement. So shoot until the threat is over. All modern controlled expansion bullets designed for law enforcement use level the playing field amongst the calibers mentioned. Just choose a caliber you shoot well, can afford ammo for, and can practice with.

I shoot 9mm out of a P226. Easily controlled recoil and for me it makes holes in the paper bad guys. Also, did I mention that my Tactical buds keep me up to my ass in free 9mm? 8)


Will a hollow point go through, I guess it depends if it hits bone or not? All things being equal...shot placement and bullet I thought a 45 would hit harder. I figure if someone is shooting back if you can knock them down or move their body significantly they have less of a chance of accurately returning fire.

Any thoughts on why special forces use 45s?
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Postby INTERCEPTOR » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:32 am

Any thoughts on why special forces use 45s?


Because their sidearms are secondary weapons. Special Forces/Tactical/SWAT members are usually equipped with a long arm or SMG as their primary weapon. Americans have always has a love affair with the .45 ACP since 1911. Also these Units .45's are not a stock duty type pistol and there are a lot of custom options around that their armourers take advantage of.

Given that they train constantly their Dept's can justify them carrying a SA auto pistol 'cocked & locked'. Regular officers are better equipped with a DAO duty pistol, much safer and user friendly under stress.
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Postby Barkley » Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:56 am

Question...

What is this stopping power business people speak of?

It's a theory with mathematics to quantify physics involved I'm sure, but the 9mm vs. 40 cal S&W debate has been argued back and forth on this forum before.

Physiology of the hostile target and skill of the police officer / soldier engaging the lethal threat are far more important factors to consider than the size of the round.

The 9mm has served the military and law enforcement community for decades; same with the .40 cal. It's a debate with great arguments on both sides but that's it, that all it is.

Shot placement, not the size of the round = "stopping power"

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Postby Mister E » Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:40 am

Barkley wrote:Question...

What is this stopping power business people speak of?

It's a theory with mathematics to quantify physics involved I'm sure, but the 9mm vs. 40 cal S&W debate has been argued back and forth on this forum before.

Physiology of the hostile target and skill of the police officer / soldier engaging the lethal threat are far more important factors to consider than the size of the round.



It's hard to define "stopping power" like most theories it is debated. Stopping power does not necessarily equate to lethality. In my opinion you are absolutely correct; shot placement is the most important factor. However with the exception of a direct shot to the CNS it is a matter of the targets physiological, emotional, etc charecteristics that are going to determine their actions or response to being shot.

Through my career I've listened to countless arguements on "stopping power" and I don't find any of it particulalry important in a CQB situation. I know several guys who throw the "One shot stop" arguement, but I have never encountered any unit, Military or Police that trains to shoot once and wait for a response in a CQB scenario.

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Postby VoteQuimby » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:41 am

Nah, I was never saying one shot will stop a bad guy. Just that in an exchange of fire not everyone is as good of a shot or can shoot well under pressure. Just like the previous example of officers throwing their guns at the guy instead of shooting them. If you empty your mag and are being fired at with a high powered rifle you may not hit him accurately and if only 1 or 2 shots hits him (maybe leg or shoulder) I thought the larger the bullet going in the better the chance of hitting an artery or moving the guy and disrupting his fire. I am not an expert but I wondered why the .45 wasn't used more?
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Postby Bald Man » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:53 am

Barkley wrote:Question...

What is this stopping power business people speak of?

It's a theory with mathematics to quantify physics involved I'm sure, but the 9mm vs. 40 cal S&W debate has been argued back and forth on this forum before.

Physiology of the hostile target and skill of the police officer / soldier engaging the lethal threat are far more important factors to consider than the size of the round.

The 9mm has served the military and law enforcement community for decades; same with the .40 cal. It's a debate with great arguments on both sides but that's it, that all it is.

Shot placement, not the size of the round = "stopping power"

Barkley


I do agree that shot placement is very important. But, a .45 will hit much harder that a 9mm and they also make bigger holes. Perfect shot placement can't always happen, this is why a larger heavier round can make a difference.

On the flip side, lighter,higher velocity,higher energy rounds are also said to be the most effective ie the .357 magnum. This round has devistating performance and an amazing track record in LE. This is why the newer .357 Sig with more than twice the rounds is said to one of the best if not the best LE round. However, you will never see this round in Ontario due to legislation under the PSA.

Ontario police pistols must be either 9mm or 40 cal. Bullet weights for the 9mm must be 115-147 gr JHP ammo,however the velocity can not exceed 1000fps so I'm not sure why they include the light 115gr as an option. For the 40 cal bullet weights are 150-180gr JHP and the same applies here with velocity.

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Postby VoteQuimby » Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:55 am

Sounds like Ontario is concerned about the size of hole the bad guy has. Criminals are an endangered species though.
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Postby Barkley » Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:25 am

This stopping power, It's almost like a slang term.

Maybe the "Mythbusters" can put this "Stopping power" thingy to the test :P

As far as I'm concerned it's all logical upon first glance but boils down to a buzzword some ammunition manufacturer came up with.

In a combat scenario however, I'm not buy'en it.

Military and police who rely on the 9mm round for their safety are in just as good of hands as people like me who are issued .40 cal S&W for a service round.

This is just opinion however.

Please feel free to shred me here :P

I’m finding things just a little boring w/o someone ripping one of my posts. :twisted: :P

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Postby Mister E » Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:50 pm

VoteQuimby wrote:Nah, I was never saying one shot will stop a bad guy.


My comment on "One Shot Stop" were not directed at you.

The link below is written by the FBI titled Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

It has much more scientific data than any of us will be able to provide you.

Another good article written by Shawn Dodson, Reality of the Street? A Practical Analysis of Offender Gunshot Wound Reaction for Law Enforcement

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactica ... cle421.htm

Sounds like Ontario is concerned about the size of hole the bad guy has.


They do have to be concerned about overpenetration, going through walls, and richochet. In 2000 only 9% of shots fired by NYPD officers engaged in a gun fight hit their target.

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Postby Bald Man » Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:10 pm

Barkley wrote:This stopping power, It's almost like a slang term.

Maybe the "Mythbusters" can put this "Stopping power" thingy to the test :P

As far as I'm concerned it's all logical upon first glance but boils down to a buzzword some ammunition manufacturer came up with.

In a combat scenario however, I'm not buy'en it.

Military and police who rely on the 9mm round for their safety are in just as good of hands as people like me who are issued .40 cal S&W for a service round.

This is just opinion however.

Please feel free to shred me here :P

I’m finding things just a little boring w/o someone ripping one of my posts. :twisted: :P

Barkley




When you look at simple physics, velocity+muzzle energy+bullet weight+bullet design are all factors that will influence the rounds ability to perform and put a man down. If we only go on "shot placement" then in theory a .25ACP should do the same as a .45 ACP which it clearly won't come anywhere near becasue the 25 ACP is a lower velocity,muzzle energy,lighter bullet and is a smaller caliber which impacts it's ability to penetrate,expand properly and hit vitals etc...this is not to say it can't kill. But I would put my money on rounds in the 9mm,40cal,45 cal,357Sig rounds any day to defeat common tactical barriers,clothing,muscle,bones to stop a person. Then we have to consider human factors such as were the bullets hits,how big the person is,drugs,adrenaline etc...

Besided being prohited under prov legislation, Why do hunters hunt with high powered rifles for big game as apposed to say a 22 LR rimfire? I think it's safe to asume the more powerful rounds will have greater ability to drop an animal or a .22 cal. The same can be said for handgun rounds.

I know people such as Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow, have researched the One shot stop based on actually police shootings. This data I think does say something. How accurate is it? Who knows. These types of research projects could also be done to further ones agenda such ie $$$. I think we can learn something from their data and that's common LE rounds such as 9mm,40 cal,357Sig and 45's perform the way they are supposed to.

It would appear that with high performance JHP rounds, that gap between LE rounds has decreased. Will a .357 Sig of the same bullet weight and size as a 9mm, out perform the 9mm? I'll put my money on the .357 Sig.

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Postby Bald Man » Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:17 pm

Mister E wrote:
VoteQuimby wrote:Nah, I was never saying one shot will stop a bad guy.


My comment on "One Shot Stop" were not directed at you.

The link below is written by the FBI titled Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

It has much more scientific data than any of us will be able to provide you.

Another good article written by Shawn Dodson, Reality of the Street? A Practical Analysis of Offender Gunshot Wound Reaction for Law Enforcement

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactica ... cle421.htm

Sounds like Ontario is concerned about the size of hole the bad guy has.


They do have to be concerned about overpenetration, going through walls, and richochet. In 2000 only 9% of shots fired by NYPD officers engaged in a gun fight hit their target.


In NYC, NYPD officers were only authorized to carry JHP until recently (around 1999 or so?) Before they all carried FMJ 9mm rounds which will pass through people like butter. Training "may" also be a issue. Maybe this isn't a fair comparison, but how many Canadian officers emptied their guns on someone? There seems to have been a few of these incidents in NYC where suspects are shot 40+times by multiple officers.

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Postby Mister E » Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:32 pm

Bald Man wrote:
In NYC, NYPD officers were only authorized to carry JHP until recently (around 1999 or so?) Before they carried all carried FMJ 9mm rounds which will pass through people like butter. Training "may" also be a issue. Maybe this isn't a fair comparison, but how many Canadian officers emptied their guns on someone? There seems to have been a few of these incidents in NYC where suspects are shot 40+times by multiple officers.


Exactly, proving that bigger isn't always better. Rounds for LE use should be balanced between stopping power and ensuring that overpenetration is minamized. Both the 9MM and .40 do the job nicely.

I don't know of that many incidents involving multiple hits by NYPD officers. In 99 Diallo was shot 12 times by four officers (41 Shots Fired) They were cleared of any wrong-doing.
Busch was shot 12-14 times after lunging at officers with a hammer. They were cleared.

In 06 several officers fired fifty rounds into the car of Sean Bell after he struck an unmarked NYPD vehicle.

I've trained with some NYPD officers but I don't know enough about the organization as a whole to comment on their training.

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Postby Dave Brown » Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:05 pm

There is no magic bullet.

People have taken multiple hits from 12 gauge slugs and still lived long enough to be a threat, and others have died almost instantly from .22 rounds. There are way too many physiological and pyschological factors here to predict the ability of anything less than a freight train to do a "one shot stop."

The two murderers who shot the FBI agents in Dade County in 1986 had each taken over a dozen fatal rounds, but still lived long enough to kill two agents and wound five others. They were finally stopped by Ed Mireles' .38 Special revolver, fired one handed, as he staggered toward them half-blinded and about to lose consciousness from blood loss.

The only "rules" that apply to stopping power in a real life gunfight are:
#1 - Make it home alive at the end of your shift.
#2 - Don't bring a handgun to a rifle fight.
#3 - If you need to shoot, shoot until the threat has ceased.

One day I would love to hear this exchange in court:

Lawyer - "Officer, please explain to the court about your racist actions and why you deliberately shot to kill my client."

Officer - "I don't shoot to kill. I shoot to stop."

Lawyer - "But you admit you fired more than once. That means you were trying to kill my client."

Officer - "I shot until the threat was stopped. Once the threat was stopped, I was the one down on my hands and knees stopping the bleeding and performing CPR on your client. Your client is here today because I stopped the threat in the most efficient and effective way possible to protect the safety of myself, my fellow officers and the citizens of this country I am hired to protect, including - as you can now see - your client. Therefore, I beg to differ; I shot to stop."

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Postby Mister E » Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:37 pm

Dave Brown wrote:There is no magic bullet.
People have taken multiple hits from 12 gauge slugs and still lived long enough to be a threat, and others have died almost instantly from .22 rounds. There are way too many physiological and pyschological factors here to predict the ability of anything less than a freight train to do a "one shot stop."


Exactly. People have lived after an unexploded RPG pierced through their abdomen. And other people have lost conciousness after being shot at, but never hit.

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Postby INTERCEPTOR » Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:50 pm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

FBI-Miami shootout forensic analysis.
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