What do you think about people having these?

Discussion for firearms and less-lethal equipment.
Urban
Rookie Member
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:34 am
Location: Toronto
Contact:

What do you think about people having these?

Postby Urban » Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:22 pm

what do you think about private security, and special constables having these?
COMPLETELY theoretical. I was just thinking about it because they appeared on another forum...

apparently in RUssia its been proposed that transit cops and other security guards/officers carry these.
They are centre fire firearms that fire a heavy non-lethal rubber projectile. Some of them look like actual fire arms, where as others dont.
Image
Image
looks like a makarov to me!
The calibre looks rather small to do any stopping.
This one looks funny, but is what it hink the most effective.
Image[/img]

pukie
Lord of the Poobahs
Posts: 1034
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 9:59 pm
Location: LLL Division
Contact:

Postby pukie » Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:26 pm

Absolutly not. If you are going to pull your firearm out, it is because someone is threatening you with lethal force. If someone is threatening your life with lethal force, then there is nothing a couple pieces of recycled bicycle tires are going to do for you.

Burick
Veteran Member
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:29 pm
Contact:

Postby Burick » Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:44 pm

No, my reasoning is pretty much along the lines of what pukie stated.

User avatar
B6
Rookie Member
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:23 am
Contact:

Postby B6 » Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:02 pm

What if you hit them in the eye with it? :P
B6

Starsky

Postby Starsky » Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:38 pm

Nope. Absolutely not. This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. As pukie mentioned, lethal force is for lethal force situations. Not a bunch of rubber.

User avatar
Dave Jenkins
Grand Poobah
Posts: 963
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2003 11:56 pm
Contact:

Postby Dave Jenkins » Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:53 pm

No, I don’t think it would be good to arm special constables and certainly not security guards with such a weapon. If there is a need for a firearm of any sort then it should be a proper firearm that will meet the needs for protecting life. Pissing off the bad guy with the real gun, machete or baseball bat is not a good thing if all you can do is give him a bit of a welt.

Further, it would tend to instill a false sense of confidence in someone carrying such a weapon that they may actually try and go against someone with a real gun!
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it.
-Mahatma Gandhi

User avatar
INTERCEPTOR
Rookie Member
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:14 pm
Contact:

Postby INTERCEPTOR » Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:58 pm

Ditto to all of the above. Threat of death or grievous bodily harm must be met with at least the same level of force.

User avatar
Dave Brown
Site Admin
Posts: 1951
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Contact:

Postby Dave Brown » Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:48 am

Few non-professionals understand that the training and the standards for many less-than-lethal projectiles are MUCH higher than for lethal force. The training scenarios are different, the practice targets are different and the rules of engagement are much more complex.

The lethality of these projectiles is very dependant on distance, the size and shape of the target, shot placement and the accuracy of the projectile delivery system. Users NEED to know and constantly practice every detail about this information.

Hence, the term "less-than-lethal," instead of what they sometimes used to call "non-lethal."

Less-than-lethal projectiles are not defensive in nature. Because of the training and the accuracy required, they need precise shot placement. Therefore, there is no legal justification for ANY person to be carrying them for defense. They are, by nature, offensive weapons and unless a person's job involves them moving TOWARD assailants - i.e. police or corrections officers - they can not be justified.

If any private security officers in Canada are ever issued with these things, call me. I would be glad to testify at their trial.

Urban
Rookie Member
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:34 am
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Postby Urban » Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:05 am

^

Thats very true.
these are projectiles fired from a non rifled bore. so accuracy and distance is close range.
The hand gun looking ones w/ hand gun like projectiles are too weak to really do any damage.

I think in the russian context they were thinking "you guys are never gonna get guns ... but you can have this rubber gun, a stick, and a can of seasoning"

Campus-Cst
Seasoned Member
Posts: 356
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:34 pm
Location: Ontario
Contact:

Re: What do you think about people having these?

Postby Campus-Cst » Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:39 am

Urban wrote:what do you think about private security, and special constables having these?
COMPLETELY theoretical. I was just thinking about it because they appeared on another forum...

apparently in RUssia its been proposed that transit cops and other security guards/officers carry these.
They are centre fire firearms that fire a heavy non-lethal rubber projectile. Some of them look like actual fire arms, where as others dont.
Image
Image
looks like a makarov to me!
The calibre looks rather small to do any stopping.
This one looks funny, but is what it hink the most effective.
Image[/img]


I have a rule about gun fights. It involves me brining a gun to a gun fight, nothing else. If I don't have a gun, I don't go. That's not a gun.


There is a reason why people using the taser need lethal backup.

All that thing is gonna do is get people killed. Think about it, you pull it on someone who has a real firearm, the are going to think YOU have a real firearm.

That will inevitably piss me off because I'll have to dry clean my suit to goto a funeral.

mr00jimbo
Rookie Member
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:28 pm
Location: Vancity
Contact:

Postby mr00jimbo » Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:05 am

I can't really think of a case where they'd come in handy. Like everybody says, if you need a gun you're using it for lethal force.
"Being a cop isn't something that just happens overnight; it takes a solid weekend" - Chief Wiggum

TackleberryG22
Regular Member
Posts: 85
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 9:10 am
Location: Toronto &/OR Wellington County
Contact:

Postby TackleberryG22 » Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:48 am

Looking at the size of that projectile, there is only one thing that could be seriously employed for, A distraction device while the be goons take the 6-10 strides before flattening the subject like a pancake.

I'm trying to be nice, some 12ga. rubber or beanbags hounce off subject then they begin to charge.....

I agree with Dave, setting you up with a false scense of security

There was a reason why the Secret Service did not adopt the Glasier Safety Slugs, a frangible bullet, designed to fragment on impact. The water jug test was impressive, blew it wide open but no through & through effect. Great idea for in "crowds and other high populated areas" They didn't use them because they required an"all around bullet to perform against a variety of mediums at a moments notice, not reloading constantly in changing environments.
"Heros In Life, Not Death" Ontario's Police Officer Memorial

"Friendly Fire, Isn't"
"Incoming Fire Has The Right-of-way."
"Do Something, ...It Maybe Wrong, But Do Something" Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

User avatar
Dave Jenkins
Grand Poobah
Posts: 963
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2003 11:56 pm
Contact:

Postby Dave Jenkins » Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:21 am

TackleberryG22 wrote:" They didn't use them because they required an"all around bullet to perform against a variety of mediums at a moments notice, not reloading constantly in changing environments.


Whaaaat, you don't have a JOHNNY-7? It can fire EVERYTHING!
Oh, wait....they were plastic bullets and plastic rockets and palstic.....

Image
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it.
-Mahatma Gandhi

User avatar
Dave Brown
Site Admin
Posts: 1951
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Contact:

Postby Dave Brown » Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:26 am

Holy crap, does THAT bring back memories! Our family could never afford a Johnny Seven on an RCMP officer's salary, but my dad found a cheap knockoff, and, hell ... at 7 years old, what did I care.

That NIB Johnny Seven must be wortha FORTUNE right now.

(Hell, I'd probably pay a fortune for one right now!)

User avatar
Dave Jenkins
Grand Poobah
Posts: 963
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2003 11:56 pm
Contact:

Postby Dave Jenkins » Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:40 am

:oops: I actually had one. Those plastic bullets were hell on the walls. My mother was, shall we say, less than pleased!

Hey….took out my ceiling light of my bedroom with the grenade launcher! ….wasn’t me mom….honest! 8) :angel:
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it.
-Mahatma Gandhi


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest