Ford warranties

NON Law Enforcement discussion. Post your thoughts and feelings about anything you want, just leave work out of it. Nobody likes a workaholic. Get a life ;-)
User avatar
polarbear
King Poobah
Posts: 1655
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:44 am
Location: Quebec
Contact:

Ford warranties

Postby polarbear » Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:57 pm

I bought a 2013 Ford Escape earlier this year and took the 200,000k bumper to bumper extended warranty as I do 200km of gravel road every wee to get to work.

Twice on my way in, my ABS system malfunctioned and the hill start assist was unavailable on it, with lights going off everywhere on the dash. The vehicle has about 9000 kms on it. Clips holding the moulding around the wheel well broke as well.

I dropped off my vehicle at a Ford dealership to have it checked, and I left for Florida afterwards. I got an e-mail from the rep saying the the work would not be covered under the warranty as the onboard computer indicated that either I was driving aggressively or on very rough roads. I explained to him that I did 200kms of gravel per week and that no where in my warranty contract does it state that I cannot drive on gravel.

He replied that Ford does not cover warranties for vehicles that have been "sideways".

WTF! I never hit anything, rolled the vehicle (like this guy seems to think I did), or driven the thing aggressively. And now he seems to be telling me that the warranty is void.


Any suggestions for when I get back from Disney with my family and pick up my vehicle? This issue seriouly put a damper on my holidays this week.....
POLICE OFFICER

User avatar
Q-Tip
Regular Member
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Ford warranties

Postby Q-Tip » Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:59 pm

When doing modifications to a car (custom tunes, bypasses, etc) the warranty is not void unless it is proven that the specific modification caused the issue. My assumption would be similar for warranty issues like this...would they not have to prove the vehicle was driven aggressively or went "sideways"?
Don't take no for an answer basically, keep at them until they address the problem. Sounds like a shitty dealership trying to get out of covering the costs to repair it.
Go up the chain, be respectful but firm on your issue. If that fails, go to another dealership.
Devil hands have been busy...

GoodWitness
Rookie Member
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:25 am
Contact:

Re: Ford warranties

Postby GoodWitness » Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:22 pm

According to the Ford warranty limitations, your vehicle is covered provided it is properly operated and maintained. There's nothing in the Escape owners manual about not using it on gravel roads, in fact it says that four wheel drive vehicles are specially equipped to operate in sand, etc.

I heard similar BS getting a steering wheel replaced on a Grand Cherokee, my b-in-law bought it from me and the leather wheel was peeling. They tried to tell him it wasn't covered because the previous owner (me) had it as a company car and worked for a chemical company and exposed the vehicle to solvents that caused the damage. Uh, no. They fixed it.

Call Ford and make some noise.

User avatar
mack_silent
Rookie Member
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:36 am
Contact:

Re: Ford warranties

Postby mack_silent » Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:15 pm

I have a Ford.
I like the vehicle itself, but Fords' service departments / sales departments / and head office customer service levels are terrible.

Ford has shown me consistently that they are:
-dishonest (telling lies about non existent repairs needed),
-overcharging (charging for warranty covered repairs / repairs on items that aren't broken),
-slow / long wait times (1.5 hours - 6 hours wait time for an oil change with appointment), and
-generally do not care about their customers (head office does nothing to assist/acts overtly rude on the phone).

Needless to say I won't be buying another Ford.
I won't be recommending Ford to any Family or Friends.
It's astonishing to see Fords' customer "satisfaction" ratings... when the general mood around a Ford service desk / waiting room is dismal.
Last edited by mack_silent on Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
KCCO. Wake up. Kick butt. Repeat.

User avatar
Dave Brown
Site Admin
Posts: 1783
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Contact:

Re: Ford warranties

Postby Dave Brown » Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:55 am

The reason your ABS lights came on is because of a defective wheel speed sensor, steering wheel angle sensor or vehicle yaw sensor. The ABS, traction control and electronic stability control systems are all tied together and a failure of any one of these critical sensors will shut down all three systems.

Your dealer thought the vehicle must have been sideways because they read the (dealer only) data from the OBD II port that shows things like the maximum speed the vehicle has ever reached, the maximum steering wheel angles and data from the yaw sensor.

However, considering that the warning lights you were getting indicate a bad steering wheel position sensor, wheel speed sensor and/or yaw sensor, that data is NOT legitimate.

Considering that the dealer should know this basic fact, they may be trying to rip you off.

Tell them you wish to take this to the District Manager and that you know that they are reading information from faulty sensors.

If they don't come around, explain you are going to go on every single forum you can think of to report they are trying to rip you off AND you are going to report this to Transport Canada as a defect. They should fall all over themselves to help you.

(By the way, Transport Canada will certainly want to know that these systems can fail by the simple act of driving on gravel roads. It may indicate a model-wide defect.)

I would put money on the fact that you have one bad wheel speed sensor, and perhaps a yaw or steering wheel position sensor too.

Good luck and let us know.

User avatar
devilwoman
Lord of the Poobahs
Posts: 1058
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2003 10:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Ford warranties

Postby devilwoman » Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:51 am

There's nothing in the Escape owners manual about not using it on gravel roads, in fact it says that four wheel drive vehicles are specially equipped to operate in sand, etc.


If I'm not mistaken, some of their commercials even show the Escapes driving in those conditions.

Considering that the dealer should know this basic fact, they may be trying to rip you off.


Which is ridiculous as they get reimbursed by Ford Canada for any warranty work. Its easy money.

As others have said, go up the food chain and obtain the contact information for the Regional Service Manager and start making some noise. Or, do as I did when my dealer was giving my parents a hard time about some brake work on their Charger, go into the showroom which is packed with potential buyers and start making some noise. :twisted:
"Don't let someone get comfortable disrespecting you."

User avatar
Dave Brown
Site Admin
Posts: 1783
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Contact:

Re: Ford warranties

Postby Dave Brown » Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:24 pm

Dealers get reimbursed for warranty work at much lower rates than their regular shop rates.

Plus, with warranty work, they can't pad the invoice with extra profit items like unnecessary fluid changes, useless engine "flushes" that are all the rage now, and the biggest consumer scam of the decade - nitrogen-filled tires.

(On the up side, in my research on nitrogen-filled tires for Blue Line last year, there was one big advantage - at least for garages and dealers. Mechanics LOVE seeing those green valve caps on cars pulling in to their shop. They know that person is gullible enough to be sold ANYTHING. Yes, an actual quote from an unnamed mechanic.)

Sadly, the value of GOOD technology gets lost in having to deal with the slimiest, most profit-motivated people on the face of the earth. ABS brakes were a great step forward but they are nothing compared to the value of electronic stability control systems (when they are working.) Next time you drive down the highway, notice all the skidmarks coming across the highway from the far side of the ditch. People don't pay attention, they hit the shoulder, suddenly panic and jerk the wheel to the side. That's when they roll over.

Officers will tell you the number one fatal accident they attend is single-vehicle rollovers, after sudden loss of control. A rollover is, physically, the most survivable accident of all because of the time and distance that the vehicle has to dissipate the forces. Yet, for some reason, it is the most fatal.

A person panics; jerks the wheel and the vehicle goes sideways. (They don't wear seatbelts because they feel they can easily brace themselves or they believe the airbags will save them.) In 20 thousandths of a second, the vehicle hits the pavement on its side and breaks out the side window. In 40 thousandths of a second, the vehicle has made one complete rotation and every item including the passengers is plastered against the inside windows by the rotational force. In 60 thousandths of a second, the passengers' bodies are partially ejected out the broken side windows. In 80 thousandths of a second, the vehicle is on its second roll and has crushed anyone partially ejected out the side. In 200 thousandths of a second, the vehicle has now rolled three times and crushed anyone not wearing a seat belt twice. In 800 thousandths of a second, a person on the inside can now react to start to brace themselves. Unfortunately, they were already dead 600 thousandths of a second ago.

Electronic stability control will not prevent all these types of accidents, and it won't prevent really really stupid people from killing themselves, but it WILL go a long way to preventing extreme consequences from things like sudden emergency swerves or momentary inattention. This is why I love stability control systems.

User avatar
mark y
Rookie Member
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:56 pm
Location: Surrey, BC
Contact:

Re: Ford warranties

Postby mark y » Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:40 pm

This probably messed with the yaw sensor a bit....
http://youtu.be/64CDKLMiTGY?t=4s

I saw a "making of" that rollover, and they said that the car was so stable, there's no way they could make it roll. They ended up putting an air piston in the center of the car that caused it to roll on demand. I believe at the time it was a world record number of rolls. The stunt driver said "you get shaken up a bit".

User avatar
Maximum_Mu
Sage Member
Posts: 521
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:09 am
Contact:

Re: Ford warranties

Postby Maximum_Mu » Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:26 pm

Bit late on commenting, but do you have access to a CDR kit and a collision analyst or recon near you?

A download of your vehicle EDR may show you what the Ford scanner is seeing and saying is this " sideways" event. Problem, these non deployment events, which are events that are recorded without the airbags actually going off are written over every 250+ ignition cycles.

If there is an event present, an experienced CDR analyst may be able to help, or at least debunk what it is Ford Tech is interpreting.

I certainly like what Dave Brown is saying regarding potentially faulty sensor data, extremely possible stuff. I suspect that it maybe too late getting to the EDR data.

User avatar
gotchya
Rookie Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:37 pm
Location: 10-20
Contact:

Re: Ford warranties

Postby gotchya » Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:22 pm

My sister had problems with her Ford she aggressively pushed the issue with Ford corporate and it was resolved favorably.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."-Burke, Edmund
ImageImage

User avatar
polarbear
King Poobah
Posts: 1655
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:44 am
Location: Quebec
Contact:

Re: Ford warranties

Postby polarbear » Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:46 am

Since the garage in Cornwall did and IVD initialization (whatever that is) of the yaw sensors, I have not had the issue come up again.
POLICE OFFICER

User avatar
Dave Brown
Site Admin
Posts: 1783
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Contact:

Re: Ford warranties

Postby Dave Brown » Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:28 pm

Interactive Vehicle Dynamics. The initialization is performed with a dealer tool when any yaw sensors or steering wheel angle sensors are replaced.

I would speculate that maybe your steering wheel angle sensor or yaw sensor lost its neutral (straight ahead) setting. The IVD (ABS, stability control) systems would then shut down, hence all the warning lights.

If you turn the key off then on, the IVD should perform a self-initialization procedure and it should be back to normal. The dealer initialization should get it back to normal, hopefully for good.

But this is exactly what I meant about the first dealer denying the warranty work. When the steering wheel angle sensor or yaw sensor loses their straight ahead setting, then any codes generated by the system are now suspect. This is why I think they took a cursory glance and thought the system indicated a rollover. (The yaw sensor would be vastly different from the steering wheel angle sensor, indicated a violent skid.)

But of course you now know that one of those two sensors was wrong. The first dealer should have done more investigating. (To me, all the warning lights coming on is a BIG clue.)

Sadly, there is no guarantee it will not happen again. If I had money, I would put it on the steering wheel angle sensor. It may be highly sophisticated electronics but it is also a electro-mechanical device. It still needs to find the position of the steering wheel through either a sophisticated type of variable rheostat that makes physical contact with an electrical connection, or laser light passing through openings in a sensor.

This simply means that they are prone to not just failures, but also momentary disruption from time to time. Replacing the entire steering wheel position sensor will only solve the problem for a while.

Here's an example. Most of the life of the vehicle is spent with the steering wheel near neutral. Let's say you park your vehicle for a day or two with the steering wheel slightly off center. It is now in a less-used point on the physical sensor and it might not make as good contact or good signal anymore and your stability control system shuts down as soon as the vehicle is started. Drive for a block, turn the vehicle off and then on again, and it will be back to normal.

Is it a faulty sensor? Well, yes ... but a new one will only correct it for a little while. If it only happens once or twice a year, it's no big deal. (If it happens more often than once or twice a year, then it does need replacing.)

The real fault is that steering wheel position sensors and yaw angle sensors are still new technology that uses a lot of old-school parts. Just like first generation airbags and first generation ABS brakes, it will take a few years before the technology catches up and these bugs are worked out.

User avatar
Dave Brown
Site Admin
Posts: 1783
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Contact:

Re: Ford warranties

Postby Dave Brown » Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:41 pm

To illustrate more of a personal example, GM suffered problems in the early 2000s with faulty instrument gauge readings. GM ended up suing one of their own companies, Delphi Electronics, on the issue. It was tiny little motors called cluster motors that drive the instrument gauge needles. When they fail, they would usually just die where they were pointed and then as you continued to drive, they would creep up and up until they hit the pins. I have had several fail over the years (I replaced my own by soldering in new cluster motors I bought on eBay) and have seen some crazy gauge readings. When the speedometer failed, it wouldn't go below 90, and when driving at a normal 50 or so, it would read around 160. When I hit the highway, I would see readings over 220.

However, the vehicle overspeed warning built in to the diagnostics system (that can only be read by the dealer) was built in to the NEEDLE position, not the actual vehicle speed sensor built in to the transmission. My dealer actually thought my truck had once done 220.

Now, it may be a 280 HP straight six with 4-valves per cylinder and double overhead cams, but it is still a truck.

This is an example of interfaces that need more work!

Gearhead77
Rookie Member
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:05 pm
Contact:

Re: Ford warranties

Postby Gearhead77 » Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:35 am

The steering angle sensor on the 2013 Escape is integral to the EPAS steering gear (the electronic steering rack) and is non-replaceable on its own. The entire rack would require replacement. The yaw sensors are built into the RCM (restraints control module which is Fords terminology for the airbag module). I'd sure love to see what kind of codes and freeze-frame data would be stored in your vehicle for that dealer to determine that your concern is a result of owner abuse. While I haven't replaced any steering gears on the 2013 Escape yet, I have replaced several on F150s and one on a new Taurus for faulty steering angle sensors. In all cases I've had, the dash is lit up with the ABS and traction control lights along with a lack of power steering assist that may be intermittent or may just be dead altogether.

I really hate when dealers try to jump on the owner fault bandwagon for issues like this. I view it as such a near-sighted approach to business. You even bought the "full meal deal" warranty! You should be given a loaner car while the tech makes sure the vehicle is absolutely perfect. Why market that vehicle the way they do if it can't handle gravel roads? Unless a speed sensor harness got smacked with a rock, the majority of the important bits are all protected by plastic skid plates underneath and shouldn't cause an issue. While this dealer might be able to scam a retail repair in a case like this I'm sure you'll never go back to them and may never buy a Ford again. I personally love warranty work because I can order parts immediately and don't have any downtime while I wait for a yes/no decision from the customer. I also warranty modified vehicles all the time because I find the parts that fail with modified vehicles are often common failures on non-modified vehicles as well (6.0L diesel head gaskets come to mind). There are too many cases where there is a grey area as to whether or not the modification caused the failure so I would rather take the customers side and get all the future business too.

User avatar
mack_silent
Rookie Member
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:36 am
Contact:

Re: Ford warranties

Postby mack_silent » Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:25 pm

Ford escape with rear braking issue.
When moderately to firmly applying brakes (even at low speeds - 40km/h), there is a clunk noise in rear of vehicle, can also hear left drum activating a split second before right drum brake.

This causes the vehicle to fishtail slightly to one side, and for the rear end to push the front end forward.
The issue started after dealership changed my tires and overly tightened the E-brake.

-Front disc rotors and pads were recently changed
-Tone rings look good, clean, and not loose
-ABS sensors in rear have been replaced with new
-The drum rotors and brake shoes look fine
-The rear flex lines were recently changed (cracked)
-No ABS lights on the dash
-Brake fluid has been bled / is new
-The rear rotors are different temperatures after driving / heavy braking (rear left is warm / rear right is hot)

It's been to the dealership twice, with no resolve.
Any suggestions?
KCCO. Wake up. Kick butt. Repeat.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 3 guests