Regulation of gas prices.

NON Law Enforcement discussion. Post your thoughts and feelings about anything you want, just leave work out of it. Nobody likes a workaholic. Get a life ;-)
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fjacky
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Re: Regulation of gas prices.

Postby fjacky » Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:16 am

Canadian Blue wrote:
stupid comment. not everyone has a gas guzzler


Not really, I had the option of buying a Hybrid for example, figured the price wasn't worth it. Would I have saved money on gas, probably, but I sure as hell won't complain about it given I had a choice.

Most people will drive everywhere, even when it's not necessary. If people are consuming more and more gas they should expect higher prices for it. If you want to save money you can do alot of different things, car pooling, using public transit, walking (if an option), etc.


cant carpool, cant take public transit, walking is not an option. The ONLY driving I do..(except for vacation) is to work and back....and maybe the odd beer store run.

I am consuming the same amount of gas as I have done for years......... I am now just paying through the ass for it
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Re: Regulation of gas prices.

Postby Canadian Blue » Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:21 am

I'd like it if technology and innovation came that quickly but it rarely does. Listen, I empathize with problem with gas prices, I can still remember paying 60 cents for gas and wondering if it had hit it's peak.

But, with gas, much like any other resource when the supply goes down and the demand goes up we'll end up paying more for it. If you think oil has peaked (I personally do) and it's going to cost more and more money to get petroleum we should expect any oil based products to go up in price.

What benefit will a cap give us if we start running out of oil and their has been no real incentive to produce new technologies if the price will remain the same regardless of what the supply is.

I'm just giving the negatives of putting in place a price cap, while it might sound good at first their could be some negative consequences to it down the road.

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Re: Regulation of gas prices.

Postby Punisher-One » Sat Apr 23, 2011 8:41 am

Canadian Blue wrote:But, with gas, much like any other resource when the supply goes down and the demand goes up we'll end up paying more for it. If you think oil has peaked (I personally do) and it's going to cost more and more money to get petroleum we should expect any oil based products to go up in price.


It is fiction and propaganda put out by the fuel companies that the oil supply is somehow "running out". They say that to artificially jack up the prices to astronomical levels.
There is more petroleum out there than you think. There are even studies to suggest that the earth is producing the petroleum and it is not quite the "finite" resource we are lead to believe that it is.

That being said I also think we need to stop using it. No matter how you slice it the fumes are terrible for the planet. There are viable options out there (clean diesel, bio diesel, certain oils that can be extracted from plants grown on farms) that are not being pursued because of big oil's stranglehold on politics and socio-economics.

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Re: Regulation of gas prices.

Postby Snowman » Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:49 am

Force Recon wrote:
Canadian Blue wrote:But, with gas, much like any other resource when the supply goes down and the demand goes up we'll end up paying more for it. If you think oil has peaked (I personally do) and it's going to cost more and more money to get petroleum we should expect any oil based products to go up in price.


It is fiction and propaganda put out by the fuel companies that the oil supply is somehow "running out". :ponder: They say that to artificially jack up the prices to astronomical levels.
There is more petroleum out there than you think. There are even studies to suggest that the earth is producing the petroleum and it is not quite the "finite" resource we are lead to believe that it is.

That being said I also think we need to stop using it. No matter how you slice it the fumes are terrible for the planet. There are viable options out there (clean diesel, bio diesel, certain oils that can be extracted from plants grown on farms) that are not being pursued because of big oil's stranglehold on politics and socio-economics.


The Peak Oil Crisis: Killing Off the Recovery
By Tom Whipple
Tuesday, April 19 2011 05:40:03 PM
Since the middle of February oil prices have increased by some $22 a barrel. As the U.S. currently consumes just over 19 million barrels of oil a day, that means collectively we are now spending about $420 million a day more filling up our fuel tanks than we were two months ago.

Now some of us are wealthy enough to absorb this increased expenditure without a second thought, and some just tuck the added cost away on their credit card statements in hopes there will come a day when they can afford to pay it off. For most however, these higher fuel costs, and of course the higher food and nearly-everything-else bills that go with it, are being covered by foregoing other expenditures that are not an essential part of our lives.

Unlike the price spike of three years ago, when oil prices climbed from $70 a barrel in late 2007 to a peak of $147 in July 2008 and then collapsed to less than $60 a barrel by the end of the year, this time prices have been moving steadily higher since March of 2010. Much has happened since the 2008 oil price spike that has left the U.S. and global economies different places than they were three years ago.

In a ground-breaking statement last week, the IMF says oil has entered ‘a period of increased scarcity.’
The bursting of the housing and financial bubbles and the subsequent government bailouts in many OECD countries left most governments at all levels in dire straits. Unemployment rates in many OECD countries have risen and for many incomes have fallen considerably as workers have been forced into lower paying jobs. Polls suggest that as many as 50 percent of American families have had some sort of financial setback in recent years.

Into this milieu we now have added higher oil prices. Moreover, given the increasing unrest in many Middle Eastern states, continued robust economic growth in China and India, and despite the deterioration of Japan's economy in the midst of its tsunami/nuclear radiation crisis, it seems the balance of forces driving the oil markets will result in still higher prices before the year is out.

Now this is a message that the world's financial markets and chambers of commerce simply do not want to hear, for it implies that in the not too distant future there will be another economic downturn. In recent days there has been a spate of stories in the financial press trying to make the case that all is not lost and that economic recovery will continue despite increasing energy costs.

Most of these stories talk of the "fear factor" and point out that some, or perhaps much, of the increase in oil prices is due to speculators betting on major disruptions in Middle Eastern oil exports in the near future. Others harken back to 2008 and point out that prices will be peaking any day now due to falling demand. Indeed, the sharp drop in oil prices earlier this week, after the Saudis confirmed that they had cut production by 800,000 b/d in March as the markets were "over supplied," would seem to support this thesis.

A few commenters maintain that this early in the "economic recovery" we will not be hurt by high energy prices. Others believe Americans have become accustomed to $4 gasoline prices and that we Americans will continue to spend away merrily on discretionary consumption knowing that recovery is just around the corner.

In its newest formulation the International Monetary Fund says that if the growth in global oil production falls by one percentage point from its historical average of 1.8 percent a year, then global economic growth would fall by only an acceptable 0.25 percent a year.

However in a ground-breaking statement last week, the IMF says oil has entered "a period of increased scarcity," which "arises from continued tension between rapid growth in oil demand in emerging market economies and the downshift in oil supply trend growth."

As some observers have noted, this statement sounds a lot like a description of peak oil. The case that severe economic damage will result from increasing oil prices is pretty straight forward. China and India are likely to continue growing their economies until they are stopped by an outside force such as a severe global economic decline, declining natural resources or perhaps even the consequences of climate change. China, of course, has the money to buy as much oil, coal, food, and other raw materials on the world markets as it needs. Despotic Middle Eastern governments can delay but not stop unrest in their region. There are limits to how much driving America and other motorized societies can give up given that the automobile is imbedded in our lifestyles.

Last week the International Energy Agency released a new assessment noting that OPEC has failed to respond fully to the loss of Libyan oil exports and that tighter oil markets lie ahead. With the summer driving season that is usually accompanied by a 2-3 million barrels a day (b/d) increase in the demand for oil drawing near, prices seem destined to move higher -- unless, of course, a major economic decline comes first.

U.S. oil consumption is currently about 2 million b/d below the highs reached in the mid-2000s. The next round of oil consumption cuts in US will be more painful and therefore likely to be slower in coming. Joining a carpool or taking public transport will be an option, albeit an inconvenient one, for some but this is unlikely to have much economic impact. The problem will come when large numbers of motorists start to bypass motoring trips that normally would involve other expenditures - vacations, tourism, shopping, eating out, etc. Then the economy begins to have a real problem for businesses will suffer, jobs will be lost and a downward spiral will begin. It is no wonder that many want to think or write about the obvious consequences of ever increasing oil prices.
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Re: Regulation of gas prices.

Postby Punisher-One » Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:39 pm

World not running out of oil, say experts
Carl Mortished, World Business Editor

Doom-laden forecasts that world oil supplies are poised to fall off the edge of a cliff are wide of the mark, according to leading oil industry experts who gave warning that human factors, not geology, will drive the oil market.

A landmark study of more than 800 oilfields by Cambridge Energy Research Associates (Cera) has concluded that rates of decline are only 4.5 per cent a year, almost half the rate previously believed, leading the consultancy to conclude that oil output will continue to rise over the next decade.

Peter Jackson, the report's author, said: “We will be able to grow supply to well over 100million barrels per day by 2017.” Current world oil output is in the region of 85million barrels a day.

The optimistic view of the world's oil resource was also given support by BP's chief economist, Peter Davies, who dismissed theories of “Peak Oil” as fallacious. Instead, he gave warning that world oil production would peak as demand weakened, because of political constraints, including taxation and government efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
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Speaking to the All Party Parliamentary Group on Peak Oil, Mr Davies said that peaks in world production had been wrongly predicted throughout history but he agreed that oil might peak within a generation “as a result of a peaking of demand rather than supply”.

He said it was inconceivable that oil consumption would be unaffected by government policies to reduce carbon emissions. “There is a distinct possibilty that global oil consumption could peak as a result of such climate policies,” Mr Davies said.

The BP economist's remarks were echoed yesterday by Mr Jackson. “It is the above-ground risks that will influence the rate [of oil output],” he said.

Cera analysed the output of 811 oilfields, which produce 19 billion barrels a year, out of total world output of 32 billion. These included many of the giants, including Saudi Arabia's Ghawar, the largest known oilfield, which has been at the centre of the debate between peak oil analysts and their detractors.

In his book Twilight in the Desert, Matthew Simmons of Simmons & Co, the consultancy, said the big Saudi fields reached their peak output in 1981 but Cera yesterday said that Ghawar was not failing. “There is no technical evidence that Ghawar is about to decline,” said Mr Jackson.

Cera reckons that oil output, including unconventional oil, such as tar sands, could allow oil to peak at much higher levels of as much as 112 million barrels per day, with average rates of more than 100million bpd.

The Cera analysis targeted oilfields producing more than 10,000 barrels a day of conventional oil and concluded that overall output was declining at a rate of 4.5 per cent a year and that field decline rates were not increasing.

This is much lower than the 7 to 8percent average rate that is generally assumed in the industry. Typically, Peak Oil theorists believe that the output of oil reserves can be plotted on a graph as a bell curve, rising to a peak and then falling rapidly.

It was proposed in 1950 by M King Hubbert, a US geologist, who successfully predicted the peak of onshore oil production in the United States.

His analysis is disputed by many geologists today, who argue that technology has changed the equation, allowing oil companies to produce more oil from reservoirs than was previously possible.

Meanwhile, increases in the price of oil has made the extraction of difficult reserves economically viable.

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Re: Regulation of gas prices.

Postby Whistler » Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:00 pm

Oil from "unconventional sources" IE tar sands used to be not economically viable. Depleting reserves in conventional (easy to extract) sources along with increased demand (China, India) and instability (wars in all the places its easy to extract) shoot the price up, making oil more expensive, and the expensive to extract reserves become viable. Nothing really mind blowing there.

At the end of the day its a finite resource that is only going to get scarcer and more expensive as years pass. Its not rocket science, it takes thousands (or millions) of years to create, and we extract and burn it WAY faster than that. It is only a matter of time before its depleted beyond economic viability. When we literally run out is irrelevant because it will become too expensive to extract and use long before it is actually gone.

There are studies saying that peak oil has passed, peak oil is coming soon, or peak oil is far away and will never happen. At the end of the day, I'm not a scientist and there are so many people in this whole situation with BILLIONS of dollars worth of a stake in it that I find it almost impossible to know what to believe. For example, in the article above:

Doom-laden forecasts that world oil supplies are poised to fall off the edge of a cliff are wide of the mark, according to leading oil industry experts who gave warning that human factors, not geology, will drive the oil market.


So let me get this straight, the OIL INDUSTRY is trying to tell us that there is no reason to explore energy options outside of... THE OIL INDUSTRY? That is not a big surprise. The tobacco industry also had "experts" trying to tell us that cigarettes don't kill.

Yes that article is right in saying that new technology has made previously unattainable sources of oil viable, but that only buys more time, it doesn't solve the problem. At the end of the day, whether its 20, 50, or 100 years away, NOW is the time to plan alternatives. From what I hear China is way ahead in the game when it comes to that and are already buying up huge stocks of lithium and other stuff which may make them the leader in electric cars or other alternative fuels and energies. This is probably not an area where we want to be caught asleep at the switch.

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Re: Regulation of gas prices.

Postby Whistler » Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:24 pm

Podhalan wrote:Yes, but our Europen friends use vehicles that burn half of the fuel.
Nearly all models of cars there come with diesel motors as option, also a lot of people drive cars powered by LPG.

What's up with automotive industry here? :roll:


The Auto Industry here only sells what people want to buy.

If everybody went to the VW dealership tomorrow and bought a Volkswagen Golf or Jetta Diesel, you can bet that Ford, GM, and the others would react by bringing some of their small diesel competitors over. They already have diesel Ford Focuses and Chevy Cruzes over there so it wouldn't be hard.

But everybody still wants the Silverado or the Traverse or whatever other large V6 or V8 vehicle is available, so the automakers respond by building more of those.

There are a lot of smaller choices now but the automakers will only sell what people buy at the end of the day.

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Re: Regulation of gas prices.

Postby Punisher-One » Sat Apr 23, 2011 8:20 pm

I want a diesel in a Jeep but the manufacturers will not listen.

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Re: Regulation of gas prices.

Postby RemingtonSteel » Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:02 pm

Whistler wrote:
The Auto Industry here only sells what people want to buy.

If everybody went to the VW dealership tomorrow and bought a Volkswagen Golf or Jetta Diesel, you can bet that Ford, GM, and the others would react by bringing some of their small diesel competitors over. They already have diesel Ford Focuses and Chevy Cruzes over there so it wouldn't be hard.

But everybody still wants the Silverado or the Traverse or whatever other large V6 or V8 vehicle is available, so the automakers respond by building more of those.

There are a lot of smaller choices now but the automakers will only sell what people buy at the end of the day.


Toyota Echo..... Toronto to Ottawa on 3/4 tank of gas (plus I got lost and ended up in smiths falls which was some town in the middle of no where) :thumbsup:
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Re: Regulation of gas prices.

Postby Whistler » Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:09 pm

Force Recon wrote:I want a diesel in a Jeep but the manufacturers will not listen.


They did have the Diesel Liberty and Grand Cherokee a few years back.

I checked out one of the Grand Cherokees and it was an awesome machine, a little pricey though :banghead: . This was during the autocrash and they were selling it like 10k off sticker, but it it was still in the high 30s.

Image

Rumors about Wranger Diesels have come and gone for years... they sell them overseas but never here :( .
Last edited by Whistler on Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Regulation of gas prices.

Postby Bubbles1993 » Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:27 pm

RemingtonSteel wrote:Toyota Echo..... Toronto to Ottawa on 3/4 tank of gas (plus I got lost and ended up in smiths falls which was some town in the middle of no where) :thumbsup:


There was a joke we used to say where I was raised.

When you died, all good people went to heaven. The rest went to Smith's Falls.
To get back my youth I would do anything in the world, except take exercise, get up early, or be respectable.

- Oscar Wilde

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Re: Regulation of gas prices.

Postby Whistler » Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:36 pm

RemingtonSteel wrote:
Whistler wrote:
The Auto Industry here only sells what people want to buy.

If everybody went to the VW dealership tomorrow and bought a Volkswagen Golf or Jetta Diesel, you can bet that Ford, GM, and the others would react by bringing some of their small diesel competitors over. They already have diesel Ford Focuses and Chevy Cruzes over there so it wouldn't be hard.

But everybody still wants the Silverado or the Traverse or whatever other large V6 or V8 vehicle is available, so the automakers respond by building more of those.

There are a lot of smaller choices now but the automakers will only sell what people buy at the end of the day.


Toyota Echo..... Toronto to Ottawa on 3/4 tank of gas (plus I got lost and ended up in smiths falls which was some town in the middle of no where) :thumbsup:


I got 39 mpg (6.0 L/100km) on my Civic doing the Toronto-Ottawa with cruise on.

Chicks love it to!

(As in... they'd love to buy one :banghead: )

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Re: Regulation of gas prices.

Postby SupahDuck » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:31 pm

IrishCanadian wrote:
RemingtonSteel wrote:
Whistler wrote:
The Auto Industry here only sells what people want to buy.

If everybody went to the VW dealership tomorrow and bought a Volkswagen Golf or Jetta Diesel, you can bet that Ford, GM, and the others would react by bringing some of their small diesel competitors over. They already have diesel Ford Focuses and Chevy Cruzes over there so it wouldn't be hard.

But everybody still wants the Silverado or the Traverse or whatever other large V6 or V8 vehicle is available, so the automakers respond by building more of those.

There are a lot of smaller choices now but the automakers will only sell what people buy at the end of the day.


Toyota Echo..... Toronto to Ottawa on 3/4 tank of gas (plus I got lost and ended up in smiths falls which was some town in the middle of no where) :thumbsup:


Smiths Falls used to kick ass.. when it had the Hershey Chocolate Factory.

(Ok it didn't kick ass, but one at least had a reason to stop in).


What, you don't enjoy driving up Highway 15 for a hundred kilometres with slow Sunday-driver farmers in their 80's pickups going 10km/h under the posted limit of 80km/h, with no passing lanes for miles?

:mrgreen:
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