Community Safety Officer- "E" Div

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Re: Community Safety Officer- "E" Div

Postby th » Tue May 12, 2009 9:36 pm

FordAve wrote:
CourtOfficer wrote:Yep, and thankfully in Ontario they are kept to their intended duties. In our service everything from their duties to the amount of hours they're permitted to volunteer in a day is all governed by the collective agreement. Trust me, this program would NOT fly with an association. Has it been tried? Indeed it has in Ontario via expansion of the Special Constable program to include more operational responsibilities and it was quickly nipped in the bud.

CO
I'm sorry CO but associations are not going to stop two-tiered policing. It is going to continue to grow and it would be in the best interest of the associations to work with and not against auxiliary constables.
So if I understand your position, you think that Police Unions should protect police officer's job from paid, unarmed, under-trained personnel by using unpaid, unarmed, under-trained personnel instead? Your logic isn't adding up.

In fact, quite of often its auxiliaries that are working against auxiliaries. Case in point, when the BC government disarmed Auxiliary and Reserve Constables in BC, the Vancouver Police Union was 100% willing to allow VPD Reserves to continue to participate in ride-alongs with regular members. The Reserve Association said "we don't feel safe riding with a police officer while unarmed," so the union said, "then I guess there won't be anymore ride-alongs for Reserves." This is why Vancouver no longer has a Reserve Constable Program.

In BC, the only services that have an Auxiliary/Reserve Program are Delta, Victoria, Saanich, and the RCMP. The only service experimenting with two-tried policing is the RCMP.
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Re: Community Safety Officer- "E" Div

Postby Jim Street » Tue May 12, 2009 10:02 pm

FordAve wrote:If their role is so limited that they rendered in-effective then it's both a waste of taxpayers money and volunteers time. It also harms the communities that auxiliaries work in.
Then so be it. I pay alot of money to be in an Association and it's an integral part of my employment.

I'm not unhappy there are no auxiliaries here, they're not essential. I also don't think that "two-tiered" policing is even an option, nor is it that common.

I know that they are utilized in some places but I don't think it's overly smart to have them in extended "policing" duties.
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Re: Community Safety Officer- "E" Div

Postby FordAve » Tue May 12, 2009 11:37 pm

Jim Street wrote:
FordAve wrote:If their role is so limited that they rendered in-effective then it's both a waste of taxpayers money and volunteers time. It also harms the communities that auxiliaries work in.
Then so be it. I pay alot of money to be in an Association and it's an integral part of my employment.

I'm not unhappy there are no auxiliaries here, they're not essential. I also don't think that "two-tiered" policing is even an option, nor is it that common.

I know that they are utilized in some places but I don't think it's overly smart to have them in extended "policing" duties.
As I've said before auxiliaries are not a threat to your job, CSO's are a threat to police officers jobs. If the RCMP is able to build the program they will be able to sell themselves as an alternative to more expensive municipal forces. The RCMP has done this numerous times before and the CSO program will make it even easier.
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Re: Community Safety Officer- "E" Div

Postby th » Tue May 12, 2009 11:44 pm

FordAve wrote:If the RCMP is able to build the program they will be able to sell themselves as an alternative to more expensive municipal forces. The RCMP has done this numerous times before and the CSO program will make it even easier.
And this connects to the Auxiliary program how?
FordAve wrote:As I've said before auxiliaries are not a threat to your job,
Unless, lets say, you are a RM in a large RCMP detachment in the interior of BC where the powers that be have decided that to staff the wagon on Friday and Saturday nights, instead of calling in an RM, they'll use two A/Csts instead.
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Re: Community Safety Officer- "E" Div

Postby FordAve » Tue May 12, 2009 11:59 pm

th wrote:
FordAve wrote:
CourtOfficer wrote:Yep, and thankfully in Ontario they are kept to their intended duties. In our service everything from their duties to the amount of hours they're permitted to volunteer in a day is all governed by the collective agreement. Trust me, this program would NOT fly with an association. Has it been tried? Indeed it has in Ontario via expansion of the Special Constable program to include more operational responsibilities and it was quickly nipped in the bud.

CO
I'm sorry CO but associations are not going to stop two-tiered policing. It is going to continue to grow and it would be in the best interest of the associations to work with and not against auxiliary constables.
So if I understand your position, you think that Police Unions should protect police officer's job from paid, unarmed, under-trained personnel by using unpaid, unarmed, under-trained personnel instead? Your logic isn't adding up.

In fact, quite of often its auxiliaries that are working against auxiliaries. Case in point, when the BC government disarmed Auxiliary and Reserve Constables in BC, the Vancouver Police Union was 100% willing to allow VPD Reserves to continue to participate in ride-alongs with regular members. The Reserve Association said "we don't feel safe riding with a police officer while unarmed," so the union said, "then I guess there won't be anymore ride-alongs for Reserves." This is why Vancouver no longer has a Reserve Constable Program.

In BC, the only services that have an Auxiliary/Reserve Program are Delta, Victoria, Saanich, and the RCMP. The only service experimenting with two-tried policing is the RCMP.
The difference between CSO and auxiliaries is that now you will have paid people who are competing for the same dollars you are. They will working full time like your self where as an auxiliary is working what one or two shifts per week max. They are not taking away overtime, they aren't taking duties from you, they are only there to help during those periods when extra help is needed. Perhaps you may want to spend sometime looking at what occurred in Britain with CSO's.

Don't blame Reserves and Auxiliaries for way the program has been changed in BC. The falls on the government, police brass and unions. The public and volunteers had no say. Even in your own answer you say "so the union said, then I guess there won't be anymore ride-alongs for Reserves." Every person as the right to bring up their safety concerns. What you are trying to do, is twist what they were saying, to suit your own agenda.
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Re: Community Safety Officer- "E" Div

Postby FordAve » Wed May 13, 2009 12:13 am

[/quote]
th wrote:
FordAve wrote:If the RCMP is able to build the program they will be able to sell themselves as an alternative to more expensive municipal forces. The RCMP has done this numerous times before and the CSO program will make it even easier.
And this connects to the Auxiliary program how?




FordAve wrote:As I've said before auxiliaries are not a threat your job,
Unless, lets say, you are a RM in a large RCMP detachment in the interior of BC where the powers that be have decided that to staff the wagon on Friday and Saturday nights, instead of calling in an RM, they'll use two A/Csts instead.

I'm not sure what you are trying to ask in the first question.

I would like to know where this is happening? Since auxiliares aren't allowed to transport prisoners, I doubt this is happening. Probably one of the those stories that you guys to use to justify your desire to limit auxiliaries. If it is happening maybe they can't find anyone to work. Most of the members I know like to have a life outside of work.
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Re: Community Safety Officer- "E" Div

Postby th » Wed May 13, 2009 12:15 am

FordAve wrote:They [Auxiliaries] are not taking away overtime, they aren't taking duties from you, they are only there to help during those periods when extra help is needed.
That actually does sound like they are taking away OT from RMs.
FordAve wrote:Don't blame Reserves and Auxiliaries for way the program has been changed in BC. The falls on the government, police brass and unions. The public and volunteers had no say. Even in your own answer you say "so the union said, then I guess there won't be anymore ride-alongs for Reserves." Every person as the right to bring up their safety concerns. What you are trying to do, is twist what they were saying, to suit your own agenda.
I'm not blaming anyone, I'm just illustrating how the cookie crumbled in Vancouver. The Reserves thought they were so integral to the VPD's operation that if they refused to volunteer their time, the VPD Brass and VPU would cave and give them their guns back. Instead, the program was disbanded. That was ten years ago, since then, there has been no effort to reinstate the Reserve program and there is no discussion whatsoever of creating a CSO or Municipal S/Cst or any other para-police type outfit.
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Re: Community Safety Officer- "E" Div

Postby th » Wed May 13, 2009 12:17 am

FordAve wrote:I would like to know where this is happening? Since auxiliares aren't allowed to transport prisoners, I doubt this is happening. Probably one of the those stories that you guys to use to justify your desire to limit auxiliaries. If it is happening maybe they can't find anyone to work. Most of the members I know like to have a life outside of work.
I know, you wouldn't think it possible would you? Given that Auxiliaries are not allowed to transport, not allowed to work in a front line role without supervision, operate vehicles, etc etc. Yet there they are, every Friday and Saturday night driving the bunner.
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Re: Community Safety Officer- "E" Div

Postby Jim Street » Wed May 13, 2009 1:47 am

FordAve, I'm not really sure why you're so adamant about the auxiliaries and their positions. Or why you're so anti-association.

Auxiliaries have their roles, they certainly don't need to be expanded. The RCMP does not have an association and this CSO programs is more or less a paid aux. position, which makes no sense.

Like I said, auxiliaries are there to supplement regular members, no one except police officers should be doing the jobs of police officers. So I'm not really sure what you're argument is except that you think associations are anti-auxiliary and that perhaps you think the CSO type positions are becoming the new face of policing?
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Re: Community Safety Officer- "E" Div

Postby th » Wed May 13, 2009 1:55 am

Jim Street wrote:FordAve, I'm not really sure why you're so adamant about the auxiliaries and their positions. Or why you're so anti-association.

Auxiliaries have their roles, they certainly don't need to be expanded. The RCMP does not have an association and this CSO programs is more or less a paid aux. position, which makes no sense.

Like I said, auxiliaries are there to supplement regular members, no one except police officers should be doing the jobs of police officers. So I'm not really sure what you're argument is except that you think associations are anti-auxiliary and that perhaps you think the CSO type positions are becoming the new face of policing?
The CSO thing is becoming more common in RCMP policed jurisdictions. There are four cities running the CSO trial, but as well, Vernon, Kelowna, Surrey, Kamloops, and Naniamo, have/are expanding their municipal bylaw divisions into CSO like operations. I think this is indicative of chronic under staffing and an ineffective model for urban policing on the part of the RCMP. It really has nothing to do with associations or the auxiliary program.
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Re: Community Safety Officer- "E" Div

Postby CourtOfficer » Wed May 13, 2009 6:14 pm

FordAve - Auxiliaries are not two tiered Policing!!!! They don't "Police". Sheesh. You have no idea what you're talking about.

CO

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Re: Community Safety Officer- "E" Div

Postby CourtOfficer » Wed May 13, 2009 6:17 pm

FordAve wrote:
Jim Street wrote:Auxiliaries are to be used in a support function using volunteers from the community to support the regular membership.

Auxiliaries, used in the proper capacity in such a way as I mentioned, are not a threat to police jobs. This CSO program however, is.

There is no question that Auxiliaries roles are limited. As they should be.

If their role is so limited that they rendered in-effective then it's both a waste of taxpayers money and volunteers time. It also harms the communities that auxiliaries work in.
Ineffective? It's an opportunity to see some Policing, help bridge the community with the department and help at PR events and such. They aren't for fighting crime. We have professionals for that. Grow up, bro.

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Re: Community Safety Officer- "E" Div

Postby FordAve » Sun May 17, 2009 1:25 pm

CO,

I think that you need to spend sometime reading some of your own associations reports. It was CPA that associates auxiliary constables with two-tiered policing not me.


I have wonder how much of a professional you are if all you can bring to the table is "grow up, bro." Every citzen has a responiblity to help prevent crime.
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Re: Community Safety Officer- "E" Div

Postby CourtOfficer » Sun May 17, 2009 2:20 pm

FordAve wrote:CO,

I think that you need to spend sometime reading some of your own associations reports. It was CPA that associates auxiliary constables with two-tiered policing not me.


I have wonder how much of a professional you are if all you can bring to the table is "grow up, bro." Every citzen has a responiblity to help prevent crime.
Every citizen should brush their own teeth too but we don't let them do root canals.

CO

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Re: Community Safety Officer- "E" Div

Postby Jim Street » Sun May 17, 2009 8:07 pm

Wow. Is this still ongoing?

FordAve, at least tell us how you really feel. I'm assuming that you want or wish that auxiliaries had expanded duties, and that as an auxiliary yourself you feel that you are underutilized and need to have a larger policing role perhaps similar to the CSO.

As CO already said, the auxiliary role is one for doing the community relations and warm and fuzzy stuff along with obtaining some experience with policing.

This CSO program has simply been pointed out as a slippery slope which is a threat to REAL police jobs.
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