Page 3 of 4

Re: CBSA air-mode Officers armed but not carrying

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:56 pm
by Tommy
devilwoman wrote:
With that said there is some allowance for those officers to enter the airport for limited periods to conduct other duties before returning outside.


CBSA equivalent of a hall pass?



Pretty much my understanding of it.

Funny how it's dangerous enough airside to need a gun, but yet the customs hall full of people coming from god knows where with god only knows what kind of security screening is deemed to be perfectly safe.... Well... Except that you still need to carry OC, Baton and vest..... in case someone tries to shoot you with the guns that clearly couldn't ever show up in the first place.

I'm also convinced that that PX4 Storm is a really good pistol. The CBSA designed version of the PX4 Storm, is the clunker....

I've heard pretty much all good things from the US folks who sell it as a CCW option in the states, and I can't imagine the South Korean Presidential security service settling for a sub-standard gun given all the issues going on down there.

Considering our gun is substantially modified from the Off the shelf version, I'm inclined to believe it's our chunks that are the problem.

Re: CBSA air-mode Officers armed but not carrying

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:48 pm
by devilwoman
I'm also convinced that that PX4 Storm is a really good pistol. The CBSA designed version of the PX4 Storm, is the clunker....


Modified to shoot bubbles that smell like bubble gum as to not alarm or trigger the snowflakes? :smirk:

Re: CBSA air-mode Officers armed but not carrying

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:24 pm
by Tommy
devilwoman wrote:
I'm also convinced that that PX4 Storm is a really good pistol. The CBSA designed version of the PX4 Storm, is the clunker....


Modified to shoot bubbles that smell like bubble gum as to not alarm or trigger the snowflakes? :smirk:



Just like our OC actually emits the rainbows from a care bear stare.... :smirk:

Re: CBSA air-mode Officers armed but not carrying

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:29 pm
by Ziggy Stardust
Jonny Utah wrote:Ziggy, where did you get this 2 years thing? It's been 2 years for 10 years.

This is a revived old thread and that post of mine is a little over three years old. At the time there was some faint hope that after arming had been fully implemented at frontier ports that there would be a move to implementation at airports. The original plan way back when over 10 years ago did leave open that possibility. Obviously that turned out to be wishful thinking. Those here who work at airports were entirely unconvinced and were proven correct. I never claimed that it would happen, only that I held out hope that this might be the case.

Re: CBSA air-mode Officers armed but not carrying

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:11 pm
by Ziggy Stardust
Bill C-23 (Preclearance Act) looks as though it will receive royal assent fairly soon and we may indeed have armed USCBP officers at Canadian airports before CBSA does.

https://ipolitics.ca/2017/12/07/border- ... ts-senate/


Bill C-23
Preclearance Act, 2016
An Act respecting the preclearance of persons and goods in Canada and the United States
http://www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/42 ... st-reading

Part 3
R.‍S.‍, c. C-46
Related Amendments to the Criminal Code
61 The Criminal Code is amended by adding the following after section 117.‍07:
Preclearance officers
117.‍071 Despite any other provision of this Act, but subject to section 117.‍1, no preclearance officer, as defined in section 5 of the Preclearance Act, 2016, is guilty of an offence under this Act or the Firearms Act by reason only that the preclearance officer
(a) possesses a firearm, a prohibited weapon, a restricted weapon, a prohibited device or any prohibited ammunition in the course of or for the purpose of their duties or employment;
(b) transfers or offers to transfer a firearm, a prohibited weapon, a restricted weapon, a prohibited device, any ammunition or any prohibited ammunition in the course of their duties or employment;
(c) exports or imports a firearm, a prohibited weapon, a restricted weapon, a prohibited device or any prohibited ammunition in the course of their duties or employment; or
(d) fails to report the loss, theft or finding of any firearm, prohibited weapon, restricted weapon, prohibited device, ammunition, prohibited ammunition or explosive substance that occurs in the course of their duties or employment or the destruction of any such thing in the course of their duties or employment.

Re: CBSA air-mode Officers armed but not carrying

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:41 pm
by Jonny Utah
That would be a complete embarrassment so I can't see it happening unless we all go full carry at the same time.

Re: CBSA air-mode Officers armed but not carrying

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:12 pm
by elwoodpdowd
Jonny Utah wrote:That would be a complete embarrassment so I can't see it happening unless we all go full carry at the same time.


Had to dig a little for this quote from a CBC report from Feb 12, 2017;

Bardsley of Public Safety Canada says the change would probably not extend to airports "given that CBSA officers do not carry a sidearm when processing passengers inside air terminals."

Re: CBSA air-mode Officers armed but not carrying

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:33 pm
by Ziggy Stardust
If you go back just a couple posts, I was the one holding out hope 3-4 years ago that after the frontier ports had fully implemented the arming initiative that the airports would follow soon after. Today, I'm of the opinion that CBP will have armed officers at Canadian airports before CBSA.

I was wrong last time and I'm actually hoping that I'm wrong again.

Re: CBSA air-mode Officers armed but not carrying

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:56 am
by Jonny Utah
The reason we are constantly fed is that it's a transport Canada regulation and until the legislation changes we aren't able to carry firearms inside the terminals.

So in theory, this transport Canada legislation would apply to US officers as well.

It's going to have to been a simultaneous roll out I think or not happen at all.

Re: CBSA air-mode Officers armed but not carrying

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:09 pm
by devilwoman


Just like our OC actually emits the rainbows from a care bear stare.... :smirk:



Ooohhh, fancy pancy!

Re: CBSA air-mode Officers armed but not carrying

Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:53 am
by Ziggy Stardust
Jonny Utah wrote:The reason we are constantly fed is that it's a transport Canada regulation and until the legislation changes we aren't able to carry firearms inside the terminals.

So in theory, this transport Canada legislation would apply to US officers as well.

It's going to have to been a simultaneous roll out I think or not happen at all.


I may be wrong but it's my understanding that CBSA is 'sometimes' armed within YYZ and I know that Peel Regional Police is armed there, so the Transport Canada excuse doesn't make sense but I'll defer to those who actually work there. I can't find any TC legislation regarding this, there may be "policy" but that's easily dealt with if there is a will to do it. It seems to me that CBSA "policy" is the problem. I'd be surprised if there was any actual legislation required, which is what C-23 is and it doesn't mention CBSA.

Re: CBSA air-mode Officers armed but not carrying

Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:06 am
by Dave Brown
Well, as you all know, former publisher Morley Lymburner and myself were both fierce supporters of the arming initiative. We both actually once travelled to Ottawa on our own dime to appear before the standing committee on national security. (For some reason, they seemed to have thought I knew what I was talking about.)

This is why we have regularly revisited this issue several times over the years. I have got in a nice little crack about the CBSA pistol in the latest (December) issue that should be hitting all your mailboxes in the next few days.

See if you can spot it.

:D :D :D :D :D

You're all welcome. I am here all week. Tip yur waitress.

Re: CBSA air-mode Officers armed but not carrying

Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:25 am
by elwoodpdowd
Ziggy Stardust wrote:
Jonny Utah wrote:The reason we are constantly fed is that it's a transport Canada regulation and until the legislation changes we aren't able to carry firearms inside the terminals.

So in theory, this transport Canada legislation would apply to US officers as well.

It's going to have to been a simultaneous roll out I think or not happen at all.


I may be wrong but it's my understanding that CBSA is 'sometimes' armed within YYZ and I know that Peel Regional Police is armed there, so the Transport Canada excuse doesn't make sense but I'll defer to those who actually work there. I can't find any TC legislation regarding this, there may be "policy" but that's easily dealt with if there is a will to do it. It seems to me that CBSA "policy" is the problem. I'd be surprised if there was any actual legislation required, which is what C-23 is and it doesn't mention CBSA.


This is the section that is quoted when the discussion of CBSA arming at airport terminals is brought up;

Canadian Aviation Security Regulations, 2012 - SOR/2011-318 (Section 3)

peace officer means
(a) a member of the Correctional Service of Canada who is designated as a peace officer under Part I of the Corrections and Conditional Release Act and any other officer or permanent employee of a prison, other than a penitentiary as defined in Part I of that Act;
(b) a member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, a police officer or a police constable;
(c) any person who is designated by the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, the Commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police or a provincial minister as a peace officer for the purpose of the preservation and maintenance of the public peace at an aerodrome;
(d) an officer who is enforcing any provision of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, or of any regulations, warrant, order or direction made under that Act, respecting the arrest, detention or removal from Canada of any person; and
(e) an officer or non-commissioned member of the Canadian Forces who is appointed as a member of the military police under regulations for the purposes of section 156 of the National Defence Act. (agent de la paix)

Re: CBSA air-mode Officers armed but not carrying

Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:01 am
by Jonny Utah
Those are persons by designation as a peace officer would be allowed to carry a firearm in performance of their duties.

The description of an immigration officer is basically the duties of an inland enforcement officer. This is how they get around saying a line officer in an airport can't be armed.

An officer performing duties under the customs act isn't listed. So we are intergtated now and perform all duties under both acts.

There are political motivations and monetary motivations to all of this, because if they really wanted to they could simply ammend the regulations to include "border services officers enforcing any provisions of the customs act or IRPA".

Re: CBSA air-mode Officers armed but not carrying

Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:08 am
by Jonny Utah
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regu ... .html#h-19

There is a chart contained in the act shown here that clearly defines who may carry or posses a firearm or ammunition in an aerodrome.

Peace officer in performance of their duties is about as clear as it gets. Not sure how they can continue to say otherwise. This appears to be a CATSA thing, so many there are different regulations hidden somewhere in the transport Canada act or some similar piece??

I haven't found it yet. The problem with CBSA is that if you presented this to them and said there it is, I'm allowed to carry they would just make up some new regulation that may or may not exist and use that to justify their ridiculous position on the issue.