Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Discussion, ideas, and questions in various types of police equipment, clothing and uniforms.
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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby IndictableChaser » Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:48 am

Von wrote:
Simplimatics wrote:Maybe one day Ontario will do the same.


Not with the current administration in power.

I don't think you would want the liberals to come up with that....Maybe wait a little
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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby Von » Mon Mar 21, 2016 9:19 pm

IndictableChaser wrote:
Von wrote:
Simplimatics wrote:Maybe one day Ontario will do the same.


Not with the current administration in power.

I don't think you would want the liberals to come up with that....Maybe wait a little


Definitely not.
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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby subbie » Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:41 am

I think PPE is a good idea. I currently work as a MLEO and we wear a vest. It has the radio holster, note book, etc mounted right onto the front of the vest. It is pretty tactical looking I must say

We wear light blue shirts with the P.O.O patches. Our vests say P.O.O on the back. I mean we look sort of like a special constable. Minus the forage cap, striping on the pants. The municipality I work for DOES NOT approve of any use of force options. They provide driver training because we drive the city vehicles.

I really do wish they took more pride in us. I love the work and enjoy going in for shift. Its never a drag for me at least. I just wish they offered a certain level of training though. Put us through the MLEO course so we are educated more on the job. It is sort of learn as you go which sucks. They do not teach use of force or have any real good training past the driving course. I've had to pay out of pocket for the training courses I have taken and any extra education I want. Including signing up and paying for MLEO level 1 certification through the MLEO association. which isn't cheap. Around 1200 bucks for a one week course. They recognize officer safety and allow us to wear PPE but we have to supply it. So some officers have it... some want it, but cant afford it. Some don't care. I've had people really get upset when I've issued a ticket or conducted an investigation.

I think PPE is required to do the job. I never know when I am dispatched to a house or to meet a complainant who is going to come out and do what. I also think people have a expectation that when we show up that we look the part and they have the confidence in us to do the job. That we don't look like meter maids but someone who works in law enforcement.

As for vehicles we drive hybrids. City or municipal markings on the side. Just caution lights. Nothing red or anything. Not as much fun as the peace officers out west who get more powers with traffic enforcement, are armed, pursuit vehicles etc. Now that would be a good go. Should Ontario adopt the same sort of model... I feel I can't answer to that. I haven't been doing this for to long but I would certainly approve of it.

At the end of the day.. just my opinion... PPE = yes... some sort of use of force option = yes (baton, spray). uniforms = something that resembles law enforcement. I believe by-law work is a form of law enforcement. Like I said previously the one I wear resembles that of a special minus a couple things like the stripe on the pant or hat. vehicles... I don't think a working MLEO requires a tauras pursuit or charger with a cage and lights. But that's just me. If I needed assistance a simple touch on the radio and they are there in a minute. Where I work we are dispatched by both the police service and city. So we are on the police radio listening to what's going on and responding as requested.
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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby Dave Jenkins » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:36 pm

The MLEO category is all over the map in Ontario. Go figure. Different municipalities vary greatly in how they deal with municipal enforcement. If you are with a lower end employer, particularly a company that contracts to cities to do parking enforcement, start looking for in-house jobs. These contracted positions have existed for 40+ years (i.e. Hamilton/Burlington) and they WON'T be changing anytime soon. The revenue margin from the tickets gained by the lower cost of those contracted officers is just too good to give up.

It would be nice to see Ontario wake up and deal with law enforcement properly. But everything Ontario touches becomes a cluster-fuck! Hell, even the Hosemen can't issue a parking/liquor/traffic ticket here (without special constables status). Cuz they're not recognized as police here withing the Police Services Act or our assorted provincial acts. Now how backwards is that?

....anyway, dream you dreams....good luck (I mean that!) in your endeavors.
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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby IndictableChaser » Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:05 pm

Dave Jenkins wrote:The MLEO category is all over the map in Ontario. Go figure. Different municipalities vary greatly in how they deal with municipal enforcement. If you are with a lower end employer, particularly a company that contracts to cities to do parking enforcement, start looking for in-house jobs. These contracted positions have existed for 40+ years (i.e. Hamilton/Burlington) and they WON'T be changing anytime soon. The revenue margin from the tickets gained by the lower cost of those contracted officers is just too good to give up.

It would be nice to see Ontario wake up and deal with law enforcement properly. But everything Ontario touches becomes a cluster-fuck! Hell, even the Hosemen can't issue a parking/liquor/traffic ticket here (without special constables status). Cuz they're not recognized as police here withing the Police Services Act or our assorted provincial acts. Now how backwards is that?

....anyway, dream you dreams....good luck (I mean that!) in your endeavors.


I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say GRC in Ontario generally don't give a flying fuck about booze/speeding tickets.
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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby Pete Broccolo » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:15 am

IndictableChaser wrote:
Dave Jenkins wrote:The MLEO category is all over the map in Ontario. Go figure. Different municipalities vary greatly in how they deal with municipal enforcement. If you are with a lower end employer, particularly a company that contracts to cities to do parking enforcement, start looking for in-house jobs. These contracted positions have existed for 40+ years (i.e. Hamilton/Burlington) and they WON'T be changing anytime soon. The revenue margin from the tickets gained by the lower cost of those contracted officers is just too good to give up.

It would be nice to see Ontario wake up and deal with law enforcement properly. But everything Ontario touches becomes a cluster-fuck! Hell, even the Hosemen can't issue a parking/liquor/traffic ticket here (without special constables status). Cuz they're not recognized as police here withing the Police Services Act or our assorted provincial acts. Now how backwards is that?

....anyway, dream you dreams....good luck (I mean that!) in your endeavors.


I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say GRC in Ontario generally don't give a flying fuck about booze/speeding tickets.

Why would most RCMP Regular Members in Ontario, at least those NOT on Shiprider or otherwise working some sort of uniform JFO with a Municipal PS or the OPP, NEED Provincial Statute enforcement authority, let alone for Municipal By-Laws?

Even as the Provincial Police in Saskatchewan, the RCMP do NOT have authority to enforce Municipal B-L in the municipalities that we are NOT contracted to work in. ..and thank God for that! I had enough fun in Melfort dealing with the Noise B-L, and in Swift Current with the Parking, so was very happy to pass Dog At Large and Unlicensed Door-To-Door Sales complaints onto Weyburn PS.
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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby Dave Jenkins » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:42 pm

My RCMP point was that Ontario is extremely unlikely to improve MLEO standards as it marches to a totally different drummer.

Whether or not the Queen's Cowboys need those authorities, it demonstrates Ontario's unwillingness to change. It won't budge for the RCMP. So those that think they'll see great changes for MLEO's....keep on dream'n.
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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby Dave Jenkins » Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:14 pm

I would think that the members on The Hill find it of some value. When it comes to changes Ontario loves to live in the dark ages.
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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby Dave Jenkins » Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:12 am

IndictableChaser wrote: I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say GRC in Ontario generally don't give a flying fuck about booze/speeding tickets.


But do you not think it asinine that the RCMP are not recognized as police here in Ontario under the PSA and provincial acts? My point for using the RCMP is that this has been a long standing issue and Ontario has never saw fit to accommodate our national police force. Ontario has dicked around with them, special constables (in general) and every other issue that comes before them. Municipal enforcement is so far down the give a shit list it will never see the light of day.

Ontario has been extremely content to leave special constable governance to agreements between those (non police) entities and their sponsor police service. This left standardization (ie. look, training & equipment) in limbo. The special constables services, over time, worked together, starting with universities, to create standards among themselves. The high standards (all aspects) for non police special constables that you see today is self imposed.

So looking at the above, does anyone actually think Ontario is going to care about by-law enforcement? This is something that is in the hands of each city/town and that has been working without provincial hands on for a long time. Municipalities that have lower end enforcement providers are not going to be inclined to incur a cost they can avoid if at all possible.

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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby Dave Jenkins » Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:34 am

subbie, where is the line drawn? What you are hoping for is a heavy cost in an area that many municipalities simply are not willing to spend in. Looking at the money maker - PARKING ENFORCEMENT - it is both a necessary evil and a revenue generator. By-law officers exist because police to not have the time/staff to deal with this. Now look to who has what for this enforcement and you see that in 99% of cases where there is a upscale by-law unit there is a much greater tax base to work from. I mention tax base because that translates into a generally more affluent community.

As I have said in an earlier post, Burlington uses Commissionaires to provide Parking Enforcement. The in-house members do assorted tasks but enforcement is all but totally non existent. This has been the structure for 40+ years. Parking revenue in Burlington is between $2.5 -$3 millions per year on average. A lot in some views and peanuts in others. Take a $100k or so out of that revenue for up scaling the enforcement unit and there'd be no end of conniptions.

These entities are what they are and hoping they will grown to what you would like to see them as is a waste of effort or concern. Either accept or move on. I've seen many that have continued to try and will change. It doesn't work. Over time you just become bitter.
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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby smitty » Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:34 am

I live in Ottawa and work in Cornwall. I see RCMP officers with people pulled over on non-NCC roads all the time. As far as I know they DO write HTA tags and are sworn in as provincial offences officers on Ontario (within the past 10 years).

How else would they enforce the Tobacco Tax Act in Ontario if they weren't provincial offences officers?

I've also heard of some RCMP officers on secondment in the GTA as part OPP's HSD.

Am I missing something?

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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby Dave Jenkins » Fri Apr 08, 2016 2:34 pm

They get a special constable status which includes them as P.O.O.'s. And this has been going on since the 80's when they brought in the POA and revamped the various provincial statutes. It was during that time that some bright bunny decided that police officer and peace officer were totally interchangeable. :oops: Nobody clued in until a McMaster University LLA case and a sharp defense lawyer. Things had carried for about 2 years on without anyone such as the Ministry, courts, sponsor police agencies and special constable agencies tuning in to the hiccup of police officer VS peace officer.

All of a sudden you had all the special constables, who under the new PSA were now excluded as "police officers" and this also left out the RCMP as their was no recognition withing the PSA or any provincial acts to acknowledge them as police. :roll: Prior to all this all Ontario Acts used "peace officer" and there were no issues. The made in Ontario solution was to amend the PSA section 53 to allow special constables to have police authority conferred for LLA, TPA and HTA etcetera. They also added section 54 to make First Nations constables which allows them police authority.

The only reason I keep throwing this subject out there is to demonstrate how backwards Ontario is with shit that could and should be very simple. :twitch:
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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby Dave Jenkins » Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:17 pm

Getting back to by-law/municipal enforcement.

Vehicles:
Vehicles should be clearly marked out as by-law or municipal or parking enforcement so people know what you are. There is absolutely not need for a prisoner partition. Emergency lights are something that should be on vehicles that will be stopped on streets during enforcement operations. Simple amber is good enough. Roof mount gives better visibility.

Personal Safety Equipment:
For parking enforcement high visibility is of extreme importance! Hi visibility coats and or vests should be part of your uniform. Most are clambering for ballistic vests over these. You are much more likely to get hit by a vehicle than shot at, stabbed or punched.

Use of force tools such as pepper spray and batons are tools that require a high standard of training. There is also a higher liability for the officer and the employer when these tools are present. I'm not going to discuss these items further than this on the public side. Tactical communications is something that often works well. Defuse the situation and even avoid throwing fuel on the fire with tactical communications.

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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby IndictableChaser » Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:50 pm

Dave Jenkins wrote:Getting back to by-law/municipal enforcement.

Vehicles:
Vehicles should be clearly marked out as by-law or municipal or parking enforcement so people know what you are. There is absolutely not need for a prisoner partition. Emergency lights are something that should be on vehicles that will be stopped on streets during enforcement operations. Simple amber is good enough. Roof mount gives better visibility.

Personal Safety Equipment:
For parking enforcement high visibility is of extreme importance! Hi visibility coats and or vests should be part of your uniform. Most are clambering for ballistic vests over these. You are much more likely to get hit by a vehicle than shot at, stabbed or punched.

Use of force tools such as pepper spray and batons are tools that require a high standard of training. There is also a higher liability for the officer and the employer when these tools are present. I'm not going to discuss these items further than this on the public side. Tactical communications is something that often works well. Defuse the situation and even avoid throwing fuel on the fire with tactical communications.

Image
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Ya....you're bullshit bylaw proposition would've had me killed when I worked MLE. No silent partner = go fuck yourself when it comes to arrests, We'll wait until police to show up for house parties etc or do commercial vehicle inspections, and we didn't wear an Volunteer cop light blues, we had dark blues with body armor (that's nitpicking, but it definitely looks better)

O, we had red lights and a full light-bar also...Would you look at that, not yellow.

PS:Bylaw services differ greatly from municipality to municipality. What works in one doesn't in the other. Some places bylaw arrests, some don't. I have no idea what you do, but whatever it is I hope they don't put you in charge of re-writing MLEO practices in Ontario. Simply because there is no one size fits all approach. If some municipalities want a more aggressive role for their MLEO's, there should be an avenue to approach it.
Last edited by IndictableChaser on Fri Apr 08, 2016 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby IndictableChaser » Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:52 pm

Dave Jenkins wrote:
IndictableChaser wrote: I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say GRC in Ontario generally don't give a flying fuck about booze/speeding tickets.


But do you not think it asinine that the RCMP are not recognized as police here in Ontario under the PSA and provincial acts? My point for using the RCMP is that this has been a long standing issue and Ontario has never saw fit to accommodate our national police force. Ontario has dicked around with them, special constables (in general) and every other issue that comes before them.


I worked with airport division everyday. Once again, it's irrelevant for them. Plus, nos PSA bullshit, and no SIU, amongst many other benefits.
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... Got to. It’s America, man."


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