Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Discussion, ideas, and questions in various types of police equipment, clothing and uniforms.
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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby mack_silent » Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:24 pm

The public seems to have greatly misinformed feelings about the purpose and proper usage of batons/handcuffs.
Their perception: They look "Intimidating" and "Authoritative".
In reality, these two items are nothing more than defensive tools. When they are needed, they are really needed.

From all the statistical reports that the TTC does, there hasn't been any evidence to support/legitimize the public's "fear" of TFI's carrying protective equipment. (Baton/handcuffs)
Meanwhile, there is ample evidence showing that public and staff (including riders, drivers, fare booth operators, enforcement staff, etc.) are being assaulted on the transit system.

There are feelings and then there are facts. In this case, the 1st is wrongfully superceding the 2nd.
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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby mleo87 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:42 am

I keep hearing that we will never get PPE in our outfit. After all, speaking up about health and safety concerns is mostly ill advised and gets you only two things, either a black mark from management next to your name or you could be outcast from the rest of those who are trying to advance their own careers by not raising such concerns. If your not a "yes man" for management or you speak up against the status quo management puts out, then reprisal is the likely outcome you will receive even though you may be completely within your right to raise a concern. Other officers have informed me of similar reprisal treatment after speaking up.

To make things worse with attempting to obtain a positive and safe work environment, the days of union brotherhood and supporting one another seem to be disappearing. Either you shut up, accept the risks if you want to keep a job and a paycheck or, get out and they'll just pay the next poor schmuck even less who will do it without asking any questions.
Last edited by mleo87 on Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby Punisher-One » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:28 pm

mack_silent wrote:There are feelings and then there are facts. In this case, the 1st is wrongfully superceding the 2nd.


Unfortunately we live in a world where people's feelings trump facts.

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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby IndictableChaser » Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:04 pm

Feelz over reals :roll:
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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby mleo87 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:47 pm

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/a ... -1.3977269

And it goes on... Now do the by-law/mleo job without even a vest or a radio. Boom!

When are the work refusals going to start flying out?

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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby Von » Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:17 pm

mleo87 wrote:http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/assaults-parking-officers-increase-1.3977269

And it goes on... Now do the by-law/mleo job without even a vest or a radio. Boom!

When are the work refusals going to start flying out?


The solution is pretty clear. Merge TPS Parking Enforcement and Toronto By-Law Enforcement into a new Municipal Enforcement Special Constabulary like Alberta & Saskatchewan have.
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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby Hattie » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:30 pm

I wouldn't do any enforcement job without being able to access enforcement history on the property/vehicle beforehand (Not just agency specific information, but overall history i.e. prior police response to an address, history of known occupants of address/vehicle, police alerts on property/vehicle, etc...). Especially on a house where a rifle/shotgun will be more likely than a handgun since most issued vests may not protect you from a rifle (especially a hunting rifle).

I don't want to be the guy who goes up to a house wearing a uniform to talk to an ex-con on probation (known to police but not to you)about his dog crapping on his neighbour's property...

Access to as much crucial and vital information as possible is probably most important to me in any enforcement situation. I would think in by-law you have time to gather as much information as you can before you actually go to the property itself.
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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby mleo87 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:35 pm

Hattie wrote:I wouldn't do any enforcement job without being able to access enforcement history on the property/vehicle beforehand (Not just agency specific information, but overall history i.e. prior police response to an address, history of known occupants of address/vehicle, police alerts on property/vehicle, etc...). Especially on a house where a rifle/shotgun will be more likely than a handgun since most issued vests may not protect you from a rifle (especially a hunting rifle).

I don't want to be the guy who goes up to a house wearing a uniform to talk to an ex-con on probation (known to police but not to you)about his dog crapping on his neighbour's property...

Access to as much crucial and vital information as possible is probably most important to me in any enforcement situation. I would think in by-law you have time to gather as much information as you can before you actually go to the property itself.


I couldn't agree with you more, that said I do not think the RCMP or any police service for that matter is going to allow or even sponsor a by-law department access to CPIC anytime soon. There are "dumbed" down versions of CPIC such as ICON etc but they do not show nearly as much information. Police do criminal, by-law doesn't therefore no CPIC access. Would access be useful? Uh YES, of course it would be, but it isn't realistic. Why? Because many by-law officers do not have the training, understanding, knowledge base etc and I would bet some probably could not even pass even a background/security check to even be granted access to use it. The training, security and resource costs alone to get a by-law department on the CPIC system would be astronomical and likely unrealistic.

I see it very cut and dry. Regardless of what the issue is, if you are acting in an enforcement capacity and your job dictates that you are required to investigate something (ie even a by-law investigation where an officer may walk up to a strangers house/property to inquire about why their lawn is a jungle, or why they have mounds of garbage in their backyard etc) then knowing valuable useful information about the owner/occupant/history of that property would be extremely useful in terms of health and safety. History of violence? Criminal convictions? Firearms in the house? Yea, I would like to know about it. Access to information sharing from even the local police alone regarding a property or individuals known to associate with it etc would also be just as invaluable (not just residential but especially apartment buildings, condo units, commercial properties etc) for a history of violent acts, persons etc. For example, if I am investigating a graffiti complaint on a building, well I may want to know if there was a shooting at that very same building the night before, or a stabbing, or mugging or whatever. The point is health and safety and it's the difference between being prepared, knowing what your walking into and being aware of your surroundings when you go to enforce something, even something as low level as a by-law complaint.

At the end of the day your dressed in an enforcement uniform that closely resembles that of a police officer, and many people (many of whom are newcomers to Canada and cannot decipher between police, by-law, paramedic, fire etc) can and do immediately act negatively toward you and that's a huge hole to have to climb out of when your entire goal is getting them to comply peacefully and cooperatively as per the by-law.

As the "by-law guy" you cannot demand ID, likely you have no use of force or detain powers and your probably not equipped with much if anything in the way of PPE outside of steel toe so... Good luck!

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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby IndictableChaser » Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:40 am

mleo87 wrote:
Hattie wrote:I wouldn't do any enforcement job without being able to access enforcement history on the property/vehicle beforehand (Not just agency specific information, but overall history i.e. prior police response to an address, history of known occupants of address/vehicle, police alerts on property/vehicle, etc...). Especially on a house where a rifle/shotgun will be more likely than a handgun since most issued vests may not protect you from a rifle (especially a hunting rifle).

I don't want to be the guy who goes up to a house wearing a uniform to talk to an ex-con on probation (known to police but not to you)about his dog crapping on his neighbour's property...

Access to as much crucial and vital information as possible is probably most important to me in any enforcement situation. I would think in by-law you have time to gather as much information as you can before you actually go to the property itself.


I couldn't agree with you more, that said I do not think the RCMP or any police service for that matter is going to allow or even sponsor a by-law department access to CPIC anytime soon. There are "dumbed" down versions of CPIC such as ICON etc but they do not show nearly as much information. Police do criminal, by-law doesn't therefore no CPIC access. Would access be useful? Uh YES, of course it would be, but it isn't realistic. Why? Because many by-law officers do not have the training, understanding, knowledge base etc and I would bet some probably could not even pass even a background/security check to even be granted access to use it. The training, security and resource costs alone to get a by-law department on the CPIC system would be astronomical and likely unrealistic.

I see it very cut and dry. Regardless of what the issue is, if you are acting in an enforcement capacity and your job dictates that you are required to investigate something (ie even a by-law investigation where an officer may walk up to a strangers house/property to inquire about why their lawn is a jungle, or why they have mounds of garbage in their backyard etc) then knowing valuable useful information about the owner/occupant/history of that property would be extremely useful in terms of health and safety. History of violence? Criminal convictions? Firearms in the house? Yea, I would like to know about it. Access to information sharing from even the local police alone regarding a property or individuals known to associate with it etc would also be just as invaluable (not just residential but especially apartment buildings, condo units, commercial properties etc) for a history of violent acts, persons etc. For example, if I am investigating a graffiti complaint on a building, well I may want to know if there was a shooting at that very same building the night before, or a stabbing, or mugging or whatever. The point is health and safety and it's the difference between being prepared, knowing what your walking into and being aware of your surroundings when you go to enforce something, even something as low level as a by-law complaint.

At the end of the day your dressed in an enforcement uniform that closely resembles that of a police officer, and many people (many of whom are newcomers to Canada and cannot decipher between police, by-law, paramedic, fire etc) can and do immediately act negatively toward you and that's a huge hole to have to climb out of when your entire goal is getting them to comply peacefully and cooperatively as per the by-law.

As the "by-law guy" you cannot demand ID, likely you have no use of force or detain powers and your probably not equipped with much if anything in the way of PPE outside of steel toe so... Good luck!


False. I have arrested before as an MLEO for obstruction

Why do I still reply to him...
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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby mleo87 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:34 am

Why do I still reply to him...


I'm not sure why you do either.

The vast majority of by-law officers in Ontario (by-law in other provinces such as Alberta is very different) do not have arrest authority or the proper training to do so. It is commonly identified as prohibited in department policy and procedure and very likely you would face a disciplinary hearing from management. Unless the situation was found to be an immediate life safety danger or emergency, you will not be supported for any other reason.

Almost all by-law departments in Ontario instruct their officers to walk away from any potentially dangerous situation and if defense is not avoidable, than it is only permitted that the minimal amount necessary be used to remove oneself from the situation, get to safety and notify police.

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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby Hattie » Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:16 am

mleo87 wrote:I couldn't agree with you more, that said I do not think the RCMP or any police service for that matter is going to allow or even sponsor a by-law department access to CPIC anytime soon. There are "dumbed" down versions of CPIC such as ICON etc but they do not show nearly as much information. Police do criminal, by-law doesn't therefore no CPIC access. Would access be useful? Uh YES, of course it would be, but it isn't realistic. Why? Because many by-law officers do not have the training, understanding, knowledge base etc and I would bet some probably could not even pass even a background/security check to even be granted access to use it. The training, security and resource costs alone to get a by-law department on the CPIC system would be astronomical and likely unrealistic.

I see it very cut and dry. Regardless of what the issue is, if you are acting in an enforcement capacity and your job dictates that you are required to investigate something (ie even a by-law investigation where an officer may walk up to a strangers house/property to inquire about why their lawn is a jungle, or why they have mounds of garbage in their backyard etc) then knowing valuable useful information about the owner/occupant/history of that property would be extremely useful in terms of health and safety. History of violence? Criminal convictions? Firearms in the house? Yea, I would like to know about it. Access to information sharing from even the local police alone regarding a property or individuals known to associate with it etc would also be just as invaluable (not just residential but especially apartment buildings, condo units, commercial properties etc) for a history of violent acts, persons etc. For example, if I am investigating a graffiti complaint on a building, well I may want to know if there was a shooting at that very same building the night before, or a stabbing, or mugging or whatever. The point is health and safety and it's the difference between being prepared, knowing what your walking into and being aware of your surroundings when you go to enforce something, even something as low level as a by-law complaint.

At the end of the day your dressed in an enforcement uniform that closely resembles that of a police officer, and many people (many of whom are newcomers to Canada and cannot decipher between police, by-law, paramedic, fire etc) can and do immediately act negatively toward you and that's a huge hole to have to climb out of when your entire goal is getting them to comply peacefully and cooperatively as per the by-law.

As the "by-law guy" you cannot demand ID, likely you have no use of force or detain powers and your probably not equipped with much if anything in the way of PPE outside of steel toe so... Good luck!


Knowing this is why I have limits to what type of job/risk I am willing to accept. The way some things are done in Canada sometimes boggles my mind, but it is where I live and work so one must make the best of it.

You can't prevent everything and can't live in fear either. Vigilance and common sense are key. Some things just aren't worth it. I give credit to the guys out there who do that kind of work without having access to that vital information but that is a risk I would not be willing to take myself.
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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby ElPresidente » Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:27 am

I've been doing bylaw enforcement for seven years for a private park. It's about 640 square acres, includes two campgrounds, around 500 homes and a business district. The only thing I get is a stab proof vest and a flashlight. Our uniform is just dark blue or black pants with a tan button up collared shirt. We can wear duty belts if we want as it aids in holding keys and radio and notebooks. Anytime anything gets too heated we just back off, observe and call the RCMP non-emergency line. Unless it's a huge emergency of course then 911 gets contacted. We have to go onto residential properties, confront people out on docks, deal with house parties, massive crowds, alcohol, drugs, dogs, parking, traffic, fights, etc. Lots of good stuff. In all my time of working here I've never really come close to having to leave a situation quickly and dial 911 out of fear for my own safety. This is all because I know exactly what my limits are, what I can push and bluff on and when to recognize a lost fight. I've seen plenty of security guards and bylaw officers act as if they are police officers and end up making their job much more harder for themselves and endanger themselves and the public. I believe I am adequately protected, though definitely not trained properly. I've got seven years of experience though that makes up for the lack of official training when I started. For my area and particular job I believe we have everything we need. Anything more would just make people think you need to do more and can lead to getting yourself into trouble.
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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby Zero2 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:59 pm

Ontario needs to adopt the Alberta / NWT / Saskatchewan CPO/CSO program for it's MLEO services. Its a program that WORKS. Period. There's far too much total BS in Ontario....left hand literally has no idea what the right hand is doing and the MLEO business in Ontario is a mix n match of varying roles and appearances....in short a TOTAL CLUSTER FART....big time. Ontario needs to tighten up and start placing official mandates and roles into its MLEO programs.....even Security Guards have more uniformity and clarity.....it's frankly pathetic.

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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby lndshark » Wed May 24, 2017 8:39 pm

Just for some perspective,in the states (especially here in WA), department heads are permited to grant limited commissions to their staff to supplement fully-commissioned officers. In many cases here near Seattle, these officers serve roles such as animal control, custodial transport and court security. Others have much narrower scopes of duties (in larger departments) so they have fewer powers. There is a handful of police departments on the west side of the state that employ sworn, armed and uniformed limited commission officers for support duties mentioned above. Their commissions are (typically) reciprocal with neighboring cities so that these officers can serve arrest warrants on behalf of their city to subjects that live elsewhere. This system really takes a huge load off of the fully-commissioned folks and also increases the number bodies present in a uniformed capacity (which a lot of residents appreciate).

The Washington State Patrol commercial vehicle enforcement officers are also hold a limited commission (and are armed and trained alongside Troopers) however their scope is limited to commercial enforcement. In the case of local departments, the chief outlines the duties of the limited commission personnel and several are utilized to supplement patrol in times of high call loads. It's all of the CLEO of that department and the training his staff receives.

Is this similar to how provincial agencies work? Do they have to be commissioned by the RCMP?

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Re: Your opinion - By-law/MLEO Uniforms, PPE and Vehicles

Postby FedCO » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:23 am

Zero2 wrote:Ontario needs to adopt the Alberta / NWT / Saskatchewan CPO/CSO program for it's MLEO services. Its a program that WORKS. Period. There's far too much total BS in Ontario....left hand literally has no idea what the right hand is doing and the MLEO business in Ontario is a mix n match of varying roles and appearances....in short a TOTAL CLUSTER FART....big time. Ontario needs to tighten up and start placing official mandates and roles into its MLEO programs.....even Security Guards have more uniformity and clarity.....it's frankly pathetic.


Alberta always been far more progressive in Leo business, MLEO, security, etc. Ontario always behind 20 years.


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