Hospital Security

Ideas in police education and training. Discussion for programs such as police foundations, law & security, criminology, police college training, etc.
User avatar
Joe6pack
Rookie Member
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Hospital Security

Postby Joe6pack » Sun Oct 24, 2010 10:10 am

Clachambre... sorry, I didn't see your edit before I posted.... I coulda saved myself a whole buncha typing! In any case, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one...

And I don't know why the text in my last post is all wonky... it makes it hard to read that way but I can't figure out how to fix it!

Edit: I figured out why my text is all jacked up... fixed it.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

User avatar
clachambre
Rookie Member
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:24 am
Location: Edmonton, AB
Contact:

Re: Hospital Security

Postby clachambre » Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:09 pm

So safe to say that in Alberta there is a very clear and purposeful piece of legislature to provide that separation between LEOs and security guards, specifically to avoid situations that "confuse the public" in any way. Having said that, I think that in many ways you are right; security guards do not get the respect that they think they deserve...mainly because they haven't earned it. In one of my roles here in Ontario, I moonlight for a company that teaches First Aid and CPR to security guards so that they can be in compliance with standards for licensing as laid out in the Ontario PSISA. Granted, the majority of persons that I see in these classes (and on the daily during the course of my other role) are under-paid, under-trained (and sometimes under-educated) folks who are just trying to make a living at whatever they can get. I respect these people, and the role that they play...because they know their role and stick to it. They recognise that a security guard is not a LEO, and don't try to be one. There is however a very large percentage of numpties, shitrats, wanna-bes and never-will-bes as well...and it's these idiots that give the solid, switched on security guards such as you a bad name.

We've all seen these people.... the scrotes who "hate fucking cops" (yes, an actual quote from a security guard), the losers with a dozen or more pouchs and cases on their belts with their pants bloused into their black hightop sneakers or the ones that are just lumps of uselessness that their Welfare case worker has forced into gainful employment. Some security guards do an awesome job.... as long as they stay within the scope of their duties and responsibilities. Most do not.

Which leads me to my next point; why would you allow yourself to be in a position where your life was endangered, especially
knowing that you had no UofF options? And "hope the guy doesn't have weapons"? There's no "hope" about it...if you think he may have a weapon, or is going to do you GBH...WTF were you doing there in the first place? Of course, I wasn't there so I really shouldn't critisize your actions, and I certainly don't mean to do that, nor do I mean to be insulting but... call the pros, man! The people who are trained and equipped to deal with these situations....and Observe, Report, be a Good Witness. Now I know there are a million "what ifs" and "maybes" etc., etc., and I really don't mean to be a Monday Morning Quarterback, but I can't hardly believe that there was never an opportunity for you to disengage from these situations before they got to the point where you felt your life was at risk. Security guards have that luxury of disengagement; LEO's almost never do.... hence that very sad time every year when new names are added to Canadian Police And Peace Officer's Memorial in Ottawa.

Perhaps there should be a security guard memorial too....but I can't remember an occasion when a security guard has been killed in the line of duty, nor can I find any news reports of that from the last couple of years in Canada. At your suggestion, I Googled "canadian security guard deaths" and all I managed to find was American stats from 2009 which are of absolutely no use to us in Canada. In the US, there were 45 confirmed deaths of security guards according to the 2009 Security Officers Death and Injury Report... not exactly the "hundreds of security guards / officers that have been seriously injured or even killed.", and thats with an estimated population of 310 million people, almost 10 times the size of Canada's 34 million.

If you want to have a look, here's the link:

http://privateofficernews.wordpress.com ... ficer-com/

I do however understand your point about differentiation of roles and responsibilities....but I'm gonna stand by my statement that security guards are not on the same team as Police Officers. In fact, I think that now more than ever there is a need to make this clear to the public... and they obviously agree, the proof of which is legislation put into place by our duly elected government officials. They are performing the will of the people...


Okay so maybe I was exaggerating when I said "hundreds" of them have been killed or injured haha :D ...

Most of those bad situations were when I was like 18 and 19, when I had my first job as an LPO then with hospital security. Where I worked there was always the mentality that we never wanted to be an "observe and report" type of service. It was a downtown hospital so there were crazy things happening almost every day. All the guys I worked with were pretty switched on, because we had to be. Nobody wanted to sit there and watch a nurse get assaulted, and wait for the cops to come...or watch some guy try to swallow a whole bottle of pills in the waiting room because the doctor wouldn't see him fast enough. Most times there just was not time to call 911 and wait.

But then that's the main reason why the management wanted to have special constables (which are now called peace officers) supervising the security guards - because it was a place where they had to use force all the time (on patients and visitors), and they needed to be closely watched by staff that had more training and use of force options.
I agree, most places that have security guards are just trying to protect their property. But hospitals are unique because there are so many people that are in really bad states of mind...so as a security service, most of our job was dealing with violent people.

Anyways, after a year I got a sp/cst position and made it my main goal to make sure the security guards I hired received good training...because I know exactly what you mean when you talk about the guy with 27 pouches on his belt, slouched over his chair, listening to his ipod and texting on his phone. Those guys give security a bad reputation.

They recognise that a security guard is not a LEO, and don't try to be one. There is however a very large percentage of numpties, shitrats, wanna-bes and never-will-bes as well...and it's these idiots that give the solid, switched on security guards such as you a bad name.


I haven't been a security guard for five years. That's why I didn't know about that 2008 legislation banning the use of the word "officer" :) ... I'm just protective of them because that's where I started my career and learned what the world is really like. Trust me, if I had done security at a bank instead of that hospital, I wouldn't have the same opinions :)

On a related note...
why is everyone so protective of the term "law enforcement"? Just out of curiosity, what types of jobs would you include (and exclude) from the umbrella of "law enforcement"?

bcw
Regular Member
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:42 am
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: Hospital Security

Postby bcw » Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:14 pm

clachambre wrote:
So safe to say that in Alberta there is a very clear and purposeful piece of legislature to provide that separation between LEOs and security guards, specifically to avoid situations that "confuse the public" in any way. Having said that, I think that in many ways you are right; security guards do not get the respect that they think they deserve...mainly because they haven't earned it. In one of my roles here in Ontario, I moonlight for a company that teaches First Aid and CPR to security guards so that they can be in compliance with standards for licensing as laid out in the Ontario PSISA. Granted, the majority of persons that I see in these classes (and on the daily during the course of my other role) are under-paid, under-trained (and sometimes under-educated) folks who are just trying to make a living at whatever they can get. I respect these people, and the role that they play...because they know their role and stick to it. They recognise that a security guard is not a LEO, and don't try to be one. There is however a very large percentage of numpties, shitrats, wanna-bes and never-will-bes as well...and it's these idiots that give the solid, switched on security guards such as you a bad name.

We've all seen these people.... the scrotes who "hate fucking cops" (yes, an actual quote from a security guard), the losers with a dozen or more pouchs and cases on their belts with their pants bloused into their black hightop sneakers or the ones that are just lumps of uselessness that their Welfare case worker has forced into gainful employment. Some security guards do an awesome job.... as long as they stay within the scope of their duties and responsibilities. Most do not.

Which leads me to my next point; why would you allow yourself to be in a position where your life was endangered, especially
knowing that you had no UofF options? And "hope the guy doesn't have weapons"? There's no "hope" about it...if you think he may have a weapon, or is going to do you GBH...WTF were you doing there in the first place? Of course, I wasn't there so I really shouldn't critisize your actions, and I certainly don't mean to do that, nor do I mean to be insulting but... call the pros, man! The people who are trained and equipped to deal with these situations....and Observe, Report, be a Good Witness. Now I know there are a million "what ifs" and "maybes" etc., etc., and I really don't mean to be a Monday Morning Quarterback, but I can't hardly believe that there was never an opportunity for you to disengage from these situations before they got to the point where you felt your life was at risk. Security guards have that luxury of disengagement; LEO's almost never do.... hence that very sad time every year when new names are added to Canadian Police And Peace Officer's Memorial in Ottawa.

Perhaps there should be a security guard memorial too....but I can't remember an occasion when a security guard has been killed in the line of duty, nor can I find any news reports of that from the last couple of years in Canada. At your suggestion, I Googled "canadian security guard deaths" and all I managed to find was American stats from 2009 which are of absolutely no use to us in Canada. In the US, there were 45 confirmed deaths of security guards according to the 2009 Security Officers Death and Injury Report... not exactly the "hundreds of security guards / officers that have been seriously injured or even killed.", and thats with an estimated population of 310 million people, almost 10 times the size of Canada's 34 million.

If you want to have a look, here's the link:

http://privateofficernews.wordpress.com ... ficer-com/

I do however understand your point about differentiation of roles and responsibilities....but I'm gonna stand by my statement that security guards are not on the same team as Police Officers. In fact, I think that now more than ever there is a need to make this clear to the public... and they obviously agree, the proof of which is legislation put into place by our duly elected government officials. They are performing the will of the people...


Okay so maybe I was exaggerating when I said "hundreds" of them have been killed or injured haha :D ...

Most of those bad situations were when I was like 18 and 19, when I had my first job as an LPO then with hospital security. Where I worked there was always the mentality that we never wanted to be an "observe and report" type of service. It was a downtown hospital so there were crazy things happening almost every day. All the guys I worked with were pretty switched on, because we had to be. Nobody wanted to sit there and watch a nurse get assaulted, and wait for the cops to come...or watch some guy try to swallow a whole bottle of pills in the waiting room because the doctor wouldn't see him fast enough. Most times there just was not time to call 911 and wait.

But then that's the main reason why the management wanted to have special constables (which are now called peace officers) supervising the security guards - because it was a place where they had to use force all the time (on patients and visitors), and they needed to be closely watched by staff that had more training and use of force options.
I agree, most places that have security guards are just trying to protect their property. But hospitals are unique because there are so many people that are in really bad states of mind...so as a security service, most of our job was dealing with violent people.

Anyways, after a year I got a sp/cst position and made it my main goal to make sure the security guards I hired received good training...because I know exactly what you mean when you talk about the guy with 27 pouches on his belt, slouched over his chair, listening to his ipod and texting on his phone. Those guys give security a bad reputation.

They recognise that a security guard is not a LEO, and don't try to be one. There is however a very large percentage of numpties, shitrats, wanna-bes and never-will-bes as well...and it's these idiots that give the solid, switched on security guards such as you a bad name.


I haven't been a security guard for five years. That's why I didn't know about that 2008 legislation banning the use of the word "officer" :) ... I'm just protective of them because that's where I started my career and learned what the world is really like. Trust me, if I had done security at a bank instead of that hospital, I wouldn't have the same opinions :)

On a related note...
why is everyone so protective of the term "law enforcement"? Just out of curiosity, what types of jobs would you include (and exclude) from the umbrella of "law enforcement"?


Some people give some Security Guards less credit then they deserve. I'm not talking about building security or people who hide all day. Apparently you must be a "PEACE OFFICER" in order to enforce any laws because TPA does not count. I agree and disagree at the same time with some people's opinion on this matter. When I was having this debate I was more concern in regards to the respect aspect of security guards. People just think they are better then some just because they have "PEACE OFFICER" status. Good on those people. :thumbsup: Mind you this statement is coming from a "PEACE OFFICER"; honestly, who cares.
Last edited by bcw on Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
SierraSeven
King Poobah
Posts: 1687
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:48 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Hospital Security

Postby SierraSeven » Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:41 pm

Bcwan wrote:Some people give some Security Guards less credit then they deserve. I'm not talking about building security or people who hide all day. Apparently you must be a "PEACE OFFICER" in order to enforce any laws because TPA does not count. I agree and disagree at the same time with some people's opinion on this matter. When I was having this debate I was more concern in regards to the respect aspect of security guards. People just think they are better then some just because they have "PEACE OFFICER" status. Good on those people. :thumbsup: Mind you this statement is coming from a "PEACE OFFICER"; honestly, who cares.


Anyone can enforce the TPA. All you need is permission from the property owner to do so. As a property owner, I can post signage on my property and arrest under the TPA and turn the person over to the police. Does that now mean that every home owner is in law enforcement? Give me a break bud... you're just claiming to be in law enforcement because you put on a uniform. Nurses, doctors, dental hygienists, they all wear uniforms as well; doesn't mean they're in law enforcement.
While you are reading this, your enemy is training.

User avatar
Apollo
Lord of the Poobahs
Posts: 1260
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:14 pm
Contact:

Re: Hospital Security

Postby Apollo » Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:58 pm

He probably has a badge.

User avatar
SierraSeven
King Poobah
Posts: 1687
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:48 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Hospital Security

Postby SierraSeven » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:17 pm

:lol:
While you are reading this, your enemy is training.

bcw
Regular Member
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:42 am
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: Hospital Security

Postby bcw » Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:11 am

But hey, its just an opinion. :ponder: I know that aspect of the TPA. I don't disagree with you there. A property owner can easily enforce the TPA. Once again, I really think most people give security guards less respect and credit then they deserve. Go figure! It is a LEO forum after all. Lets get the mayor on this, at least he his peace officer's status.

User avatar
Mongo
Veteran Member
Posts: 251
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:23 am
Location: Southern Ontario
Contact:

Re: Hospital Security

Postby Mongo » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:18 am

Bcwan wrote: I really think most people give security guards less respect and credit then they deserve. Go figure! It is a LEO forum after all.

That is precisely why people here give them less respect. Because they have no connection to law enforcement.
Did YOU build the Estadio Olimpico?

User avatar
clachambre
Rookie Member
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:24 am
Location: Edmonton, AB
Contact:

Re: Hospital Security

Postby clachambre » Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:33 am

I respect everyone until they give me a reason not to. If someone tells me that someone else is a douche bag, I don't automatically form the same opinion.
Same thing with security guards. Regardless of whether or not they are "law enforcement", or whether or not they work for a crappy company with low standards, each individual deserves respect for choosing an honourable career / job...unless they prove to be deserving of the opposite.


That is precisely why people here give them less respect. Because they have no connection to law enforcement


Less respect simply because they are not law enforcement? That's rediculous. Maybe less credit for the type training / standards they have...but less respect? :crazy:

User avatar
Shawshank
Regular Member
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:06 am
Location: Ottawa
Contact:

Re: Hospital Security

Postby Shawshank » Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:42 am

clachambre wrote:I respect everyone until they give me a reason not to. If someone tells me that someone else is a douche bag, I don't automatically form the same opinion.
Same thing with security guards. Regardless of whether or not they are "law enforcement", or whether or not they work for a crappy company with low standards, each individual deserves respect for choosing an honourable career / job...unless they prove to be deserving of the opposite.


That is precisely why people here give them less respect. Because they have no connection to law enforcement


Less respect simply because they are not law enforcement? That's rediculous. Maybe less credit for the type training / standards they have...but less respect? :crazy:


I think what a lot of it comes down to is there are a few numpties who don't know their place as a security guard. In mall security, your job is to observe and report. A lot of the guards give off the impression that they are holier than thou.
K division.

User avatar
Mongo
Veteran Member
Posts: 251
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:23 am
Location: Southern Ontario
Contact:

Re: Hospital Security

Postby Mongo » Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:50 am

clachambre wrote:Less respect simply because they are not law enforcement? That's rediculous. Maybe less credit for the type training / standards they have...but less respect? :crazy:

Yes, less respect. I didn't say no respect, I said less. I am not talking about respecting basic human dignity here, I am referring to the profession. I frankly accord policing more respect than security. Also heart surgery, coal mining, astrophysics and a number of other jobs. I also respect a Victoria Cross recipient more than my next door neighbour, although I still think he's a good joe.

Do you give all things on the planet an exactly equal measure of respect? :crazy:
Did YOU build the Estadio Olimpico?

User avatar
Dave Jenkins
Grand Poobah
Posts: 959
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2003 11:56 pm
Contact:

Re: Hospital Security

Postby Dave Jenkins » Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:45 pm

Personal respect to me is something that is acknowledged in response to a person as an individual and how they conduct themselves in the here and now. Our preception of job importance should not reflect how we acknowledge the person doing that job. Policing like many other professions are important and a we automatically seem to grant respect to those persons based on the profession rather than whether they, as a person, deserve it. I have met a few professionals over the years that I learned to have nothing but contempt for at a personal level. That did not detract from my opinion about their profession.

Position respect is something different. We are taught to "respect" certain positions in our society such as police, doctors and clergy. It can become confusing when a person of questionable character holds such a postion. A doctor or clergyman who molest children certainly do not deserve respect based on their profession. In my opinion a person that is a custodian, security guard, short order cook or what ever, deserves respect for what they are doing as long as they are doing it to the best of their ability and with integrity.
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it.
-Mahatma Gandhi

User avatar
clachambre
Rookie Member
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:24 am
Location: Edmonton, AB
Contact:

Re: Hospital Security

Postby clachambre » Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:43 pm

Dave Jenkins wrote:Personal respect to me is something that is acknowledged in response to a person as an individual and how they conduct themselves in the here and now. Our preception of job importance should not reflect how we acknowledge the person doing that job. Policing like many other professions are important and a we automatically seem to grant respect to those persons based on the profession rather than whether they, as a person, deserve it. I have met a few professionals over the years that I learned to have nothing but contempt for at a personal level. That did not detract from my opinion about their profession.

Position respect is something different. We are taught to "respect" certain positions in our society such as police, doctors and clergy. It can become confusing when a person of questionable character holds such a postion. A doctor or clergyman who molest children certainly do not deserve respect based on their profession. In my opinion a person that is a custodian, security guard, short order cook or what ever, deserves respect for what they are doing as long as they are doing it to the best of their ability and with integrity.


I could not have said it better sir. There is a huge difference between respect for the job someone has, and respect for the person. What I was saying was that every person deserves respect, regardless of their job, until they prove to deserve otherwise...and it's true - some unprofessional people can hold professional jobs, and that sometimes gives the good employees a bad reputation. This is a common problem with security, as we all know.

But at the same time, most jobs deserve respect too, as long as they are legitimate and contribute to society.
Is a garbage collector's job less respected than a police officer's? I don't think it should be. Both jobs serve a very important purpose in a functioning society. Who cares what the qualifications are? Without garbage collectors, our clean little world goes to shit. The same might be said about truck drivers or mailmen. None of them are glamorous or sensationalized in tv shows and movies, but they are all an essential part of our society....and hence they all deserve respect.
Every time the janitor empties the garbage in my office, I tell him thank you. And I know his name too! Hats off to the people who take those kinds of jobs. We would be screwed without them.

User avatar
Homer
Rookie Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:51 am
Location: Oshawa, Ontario
Contact:

Re: Hospital Security

Postby Homer » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:30 pm

clachambre wrote:
But at the same time, most jobs deserve respect too, as long as they are legitimate and contribute to society.
. . .

The same might be said about truck drivers or mailmen. None of them are glamorous or sensationalized in tv shows and movies, but they are all an essential part of our society....and hence they all deserve respect. .


Not true - "BJ and the Bear", "Cheers" - both groups have been glamourized on the small screen. :D
"They have the Internet on computers now!"

User avatar
SierraSeven
King Poobah
Posts: 1687
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:48 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Hospital Security

Postby SierraSeven » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:05 pm

What other job lets you fly through intersections with your hazard lights on just to deliver a declaration of war?
While you are reading this, your enemy is training.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest