In-Custody Injury

Discussion, questions on police use of force procedures.
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basketcase
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Re: In-Custody Injury

Postby basketcase » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:31 pm

Well I hope this is as far as you go with your career. I wouldn't suggest you get into policing (if that's your plan) until you can get a grip on yourself. You're second guessing yourself as it is. In policing, if you second guess yourself, you're going to get your partner seriously injured or killed. You might not see it that way but I've been at this gig for a while now and I've seen bad things happen because some people can't handle what they're going through. I'm not the only one who sees it this way. It might be my opinion but it's based on facts of life. I'm sure I'm not the only one who shares in this opinion either.
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Re: In-Custody Injury

Postby Madeline236 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:22 pm

Almost missed the second page here but I was going to say something pretty much like basketcase. The way I see it this is hopefully just first time panic that will go away with experience. However on the possible bad side of things it might be an issue next time this happens and it causes you to not react fast enough or lose focus and end up getting you or others hurt.

Your facility authorizes use of force but has no regulations or policies governing how incidents, injuries, or complaints are handled? Kinda scary! Might be a better thing to bring up to the union.

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Re: In-Custody Injury

Postby TacticsPT » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:11 am

Get used to being investigated for any and all use of force issues were a subject gets hurt, learn to articulate and then learn to articulate better!
Injuries sustained by a subject should be due to subject resistance, not officer negligence (this is what you will need to articulate)
I also agree with the other postings with respect to handling the stress and flash backs. You stated that you were at the scene and not involved in the actual injury portion further verified by you being told by another employee that said injuries were minor in nature and caused by a door. If this is stressing you out and you were not involved then you need to be looking for another job.
Also, talking about an incident that just happened and is, in theory under investigation is a great way to get canned, particularly when you are on probation.

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Re: In-Custody Injury

Postby Jim Street » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:21 pm

I concur with what's been said here regarding the "second guessing"

I also have concerns that one would "need" the rush and excitement but seem to be unable to articulate your actions and can't stop questioning "what if"

I understand the eagerness portion but police work is 2% excitement with the rest either explaining yourself, writing reports, talking to people or being bored.
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Re: In-Custody Injury

Postby Longarm9 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:39 pm

As a moderating voice here counter to a few perhaps overly harsh voices who maybe don't remember what it's like to be on probation:

First off, you said this is your first incident and you were on probation, right? Well that makes it overly stressful. Don't be too hard on yourself. As has been said, stick to your training, do what you know is right, and you'll be fine.

Remember, the subject (I call them subjects, not clients) decides what level of intervention is necessary, not you. If they choose to behave in a way that necessitates use of force intervention, then any injury they sustain is entirely their own fault (barring officer wrongdoing or negligence, which it doesn't seem there is in this case) so don't trouble yourself about it. Maybe he'll think twice before acting like a fool next time, but maybe he won't, so be ready to deal with him in the same manner next time.

It's good to mentally recount what happened with a view to learning from it and becoming that much better in future. Mentally rehearsing prior to incidents happening is also good. Both of these are only good to a certain point, beyond that they become self destructive. Don't overdo it; learn from what happened and move on.

Comments so far are 100% spot on in regards to articulation. Become a master of articulation; nuff said on that.

My comments are not meant to disparage my esteemed colleagues here, but rather to say that just because you had the jitters after your first incident where someone got injured doesn't mean you're a complete write off forever as a law enforcement professional. If you can learn from this situation and mentally become more prepared/relaxed for next time, then great. If you're an adrenaline junkie who's too high strung and has mental issues because of a minor issue from a use of force incident, then you absolutely are not meant for a law enforcement career. You decide which is the case.
"Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing." -John Stuart Mill

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Re: In-Custody Injury

Postby MentalHealthPO » Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:44 pm

Thank you Longarm9 and others for your comments. I have completely forgotten about the injury to the client now that i know they were not injured. But I have come up with a certain strategy I hope to try if any similar incident occurs, hopefully decrasing risk of injury to staff, Specials, and clients.

I think it was the rush of having an actual client injured. And if I can try new techniques I think it will work out in the future and I will be a good law enforcement officer for a police agency in Canada as that is myh career goal.

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Re: In-Custody Injury

Postby Toonces » Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:39 pm

It's always a good idea to review situations you've been in, and think about how it could've been done differently. After the majority of calls I go to, I think it over and self-critique. I don't obsess, just reflect.
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Re: In-Custody Injury

Postby Bald Man » Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:28 pm

MentalHealthPO wrote:I do not want to get into details as the incident as it occured early Monday morning but an incident occured where a client of the facility I work at apparently received an injury to the hand when the client resisted when we placed the client in a "seclusion"room, for suicide attempt.

For police officers, especially ones who work in the cells, and correctional officers who work in similar environments and do similar activities when someone is suicidal I have a couple of questions;

With an in-custody injury is there an internal investigation?

Is there an external investigation?

I wasn't involved in the mechanism of injury but was involved in a large portion of the incident, is there any need to let my union know?

And how long is it normal to relive the incident before someone should ask for help?

Thanks



Where do you work? If you feel it's serious, I would let your union know what happened so they have a heads up. Can't hurt. Speak to your union and or lawyer before making any statements. The Charter applies to everyone.

Did the "prisoner" (not client - they don't hire and pay you for a service) receive medical attention?

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Re: In-Custody Injury

Postby Jim Street » Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:52 pm

Bald Man wrote:Where do you work?
Did the "prisoner" (not client - they don't hire and pay you for a service) receive medical attention?


Manitoba Department of Health - Mental Health Act Peace Officer (Special Constable) Selkirk Mental Health Centre

I'm more thinking "patient" than client.
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Bald Man
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Re: In-Custody Injury

Postby Bald Man » Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:59 pm

Jim Street wrote:
Bald Man wrote:Where do you work?
Did the "prisoner" (not client - they don't hire and pay you for a service) receive medical attention?


Manitoba Department of Health - Mental Health Act Peace Officer (Special Constable) Selkirk Mental Health Centre

I'm more thinking "patient" than client.



haha :lol:

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Re: In-Custody Injury

Postby Jim Street » Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:08 pm

Ooops. That wasn't meant to be a slight, I meant in regards to the calling of subjects "clients", as they're not really "prisoners"
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Re: In-Custody Injury

Postby SHAMROCK » Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:47 am

MentalHealthPO,

Have you thought about looking into any Employee Assistance Programs (EAP) that my be provided by your employer? You seem very stressed about the incident and I can understand why; however EAP may be able to offer you some strategies for dealing with the stress associated with this incident.

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Re: In-Custody Injury

Postby MentalHealthPO » Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:41 am

Bald Man wrote:
MentalHealthPO wrote:I do not want to get into details as the incident as it occured early Monday morning but an incident occured where a client of the facility I work at apparently received an injury to the hand when the client resisted when we placed the client in a "seclusion"room, for suicide attempt.

For police officers, especially ones who work in the cells, and correctional officers who work in similar environments and do similar activities when someone is suicidal I have a couple of questions;

With an in-custody injury is there an internal investigation?

Is there an external investigation?

I wasn't involved in the mechanism of injury but was involved in a large portion of the incident, is there any need to let my union know?

And how long is it normal to relive the incident before someone should ask for help?

Thanks



Where do you work? If you feel it's serious, I would let your union know what happened so they have a heads up. Can't hurt. Speak to your union and or lawyer before making any statements. The Charter applies to everyone.

Did the "prisoner" (not client - they don't hire and pay you for a service) receive medical attention?


As far as I am aware the client received treatment after the client became settled. Yeah patient is what most people would think but management wants them to be referred to as clients "as they are a client of our services".

I have not looked at EAP. I think I over-reacted to the incident. I have been in a number of incidents (arresting people [security guard and LPO]) but this is the first incident where a person actually could have been seriously injured as I have heard stories from nurses (going back years) that other people who have done something like the client have had crushed injuries, broken hands or loss of fingers. Luckily the client came out with no serious injury like those.

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Re: In-Custody Injury

Postby Jim Street » Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:07 pm

I know you've received training from the Sheriff's which might be more like WPS use of force, so here's the dose of reality. People get hurt in these situations. You HAVE to be aware of that you will need to articulate yourself and that this is a distinct possibility. If it happens you have to explain yourself.

I understand that management wants you to call them "clients" but no one here believes that. If they're at a mental hospital, they're a patient. If they're under arrest, they're prisoners.

If I had my way, which I never will, we would go back to the "Insane Asylums" of old, where people who were needing psych treatment would be locked up and treated. There'd be a bunch of big burly orderlies who would take control of the violent whack jobs and there would be none of this wishy washy panty-waist treatment of "clients". (That term would also be banned.) Oh, to dream.
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Re: In-Custody Injury

Postby Dave Jenkins » Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:05 pm

Jim Street wrote: If I had my way, which I never will, we would go back to the "Insane Asylums" of old, where people who were needing psych treatment would be locked up and treated. There'd be a bunch of big burly orderlies who would take control of the violent whack jobs and there would be none of this wishy washy panty-waist treatment of "clients". (That term would also be banned.) Oh, to dream.


Oh shit....first DW and now me...... :shock:

I would agree that in reality doing away with that structure did more to create more issues than it solved. Using security to handle patients is a seriously flawded system on its own. They should bring back trained orderlies that are physically capable of handling these people.

Over the years I saw a number of MHA incidents where the patient had to be physically subdued for the safety of everyone including them. People tend to get hurt in those situations and there is very little if anything that can be done to avoid it.

.....true story....listening to an HPS radio transmission - unit XYZ to unit ABC.....go.... didn't you just say you handed over Joe Baronutts to the HPH* staff? - yes, I did! - well guess who is walking east bound on Fennell as we speak?.........

And folks wonder why shit happens when dealing with these patients.

*HPH Hamilton Psychiatric Hospital - now a division of St Joseph's Hospital.
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