Use of Force Continuum: Managements Does Not Understand

Discussion, questions on police use of force procedures.
MentalHealthPO
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Use of Force Continuum: Managements Does Not Understand

Postby MentalHealthPO » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:05 am

Hi!

At my current job as a Manitoba Department of Health (Mental Health Peace Officer) Special Constable I had to receive 40 hours of Manitoba Sheriff Service training through their Basic Security Training Course, to receive my Peace Officer designation. However, the centre I work at which is apart of the governments Department of Health in Selkirk clearly only sees the Security Department I am apart of as no better than contract Security guards the centre had, and wants us basically to use what the centres other staff use, Non Violent Crisis Intervention. Which is fine when you have people passively resisting orders.

However, when people who are clients of this centre act out against themselves or against others, mostly us in the uniform, the NVCI does not work and more often than not i rely on my Sheriff training and the use of force continuum. However, HR recently gave me shit for acting to quickly in using Sheriff training in an incident where a staff member and myself were injured dealing with a client who was self-harming and turned its attention on us.

Should I stick to just doing this management wanted NVCI stuff or should I keep following my Sheriff training and just write it in my report that I tried Managements technique before I used my specialized training.

Thanks

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Re: Use of Force Continuum: Managements Does Not Understand

Postby basketcase » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:11 am

Pretty easy to figure out that if you want to keep your job you should be doing what the boss wants.
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Re: Use of Force Continuum: Managements Does Not Understand

Postby Bitterman » Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:16 pm

MentalHealthPO wrote:Hi!

HR recently gave me shit for acting to quickly in using Sheriff training in an incident where a staff member and myself were injured dealing with a client who was self-harming and turned its attention on us.




HR gave you shit...?
You're lucky...

There's a Correctional Officer in Ontario who had to focibly handcuffed a rowdy inmate while in hospital. One of the nurses couldn't deal with the big bad CO's use of force on the poor scrote and called 911.
The CO is goin to trial for assault. Suspended without pay.

My bet is he'll beat the charge, go back to work and fuck the employer back in spades over the suspension... Ka-Ching!$$
but... In the mean time I'm sure he's stressed.

The lesson... You can have all the UoF training in the world. All the authority/justification to use force in a given situation, but eventualy some monday morning quarter back can decide you were wrong.
Admit nothing.
Deny everything.
Make counter accusations...

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Re: Use of Force Continuum: Managements Does Not Understand

Postby Longarm9 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:21 pm

I commented on your other post, but this adds a bit more info.

My suggestion is find a new job if possible because your management is stupid and doesn't support you doing your job properly. I've taken NVCI training when I used to work security in a hospital, and I can tell you that shit is only for demented geriatrics. I will NOT work on anyone else. Your management will throw you under the bus either way, because if you use NVCI you're going to get hurt and possibly staff members or the subject, and if you use your use of force training you face potential disciplinary action from your moron employer and possibly even criminal charges as has been mentioned (not because you would have done anything wrong, but because nobody is supporting you and will go against you).

Sounds a bit harsh, but I'd be very wary of working in the environment you describe.
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Re: Use of Force Continuum: Managements Does Not Understand

Postby SierraSeven » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:51 pm

Bitterman wrote:There's a Correctional Officer in Ontario who had to focibly handcuffed a rowdy inmate while in hospital. One of the nurses couldn't deal with the big bad CO's use of force on the poor scrote and called 911.

Not long ago we had a subject escorted to hospital by two officers. Subject began to act out and had to be restrained and carried by the officers with the assistance of hospital security. The whole time the nurses were on the subjects side, mouthing the officers, trying to do the subject favours. Unbelievable...
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Re: Use of Force Continuum: Managements Does Not Understand

Postby CourtOfficer » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:02 pm

Stay hands off and do as the employer tells you. They are, afterall, your boss!

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Re: Use of Force Continuum: Managements Does Not Understand

Postby MentalHealthPO » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:05 pm

SierraSeven wrote:
Bitterman wrote:There's a Correctional Officer in Ontario who had to focibly handcuffed a rowdy inmate while in hospital. One of the nurses couldn't deal with the big bad CO's use of force on the poor scrote and called 911.

Not long ago we had a subject escorted to hospital by two officers. Subject began to act out and had to be restrained and carried by the officers with the assistance of hospital security. The whole time the nurses were on the subjects side, mouthing the officers, trying to do the subject favours. Unbelievable...


Unbelivable. And very very sad.

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Re: Use of Force Continuum: Managements Does Not Understand

Postby Kopparoo2b » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:50 am

Yah...basically, you have to follow the protocal/rules of your workplace. If you can't follow them and are concerned with your safety (because of those rules) then you def need to find another place of employment.

There is always someone willing to do the job you leave behind.

Nothing worse than having " went against company policy" or worse written in your history, and having it follow you to other places of employment...
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Re: Use of Force Continuum: Managements Does Not Understand

Postby portcullisguy » Wed May 11, 2011 1:26 am

Bitterman wrote:There's a Correctional Officer in Ontario who had to focibly handcuffed a rowdy inmate while in hospital. One of the nurses couldn't deal with the big bad CO's use of force on the poor scrote and called 911.
The CO is goin to trial for assault. Suspended without pay.


There must be more to the story. That or the responding officer was either a tool or told to lay a charge. Or was the charge laid by private information?
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Re: Use of Force Continuum: Managements Does Not Understand

Postby Bitterman » Wed May 11, 2011 10:33 am

portcullisguy wrote:
Bitterman wrote:There's a Correctional Officer in Ontario who had to focibly handcuffed a rowdy inmate while in hospital. One of the nurses couldn't deal with the big bad CO's use of force on the poor scrote and called 911.
The CO is goin to trial for assault. Suspended without pay.


There must be more to the story. That or the responding officer was either a tool or told to lay a charge. Or was the charge laid by private information?



Yeah... And it's playing out in court this week.
From what I've heard crowns a tool, witnesses against the co are not doing well on the stand...
Some wonder why the case is even in court...
The theater going on is offensive...
Witnesses, the inmate and police all get referred to as sir/mr./miss/mrs.
The correctional officer gets referred to as "the guard"

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Re: Use of Force Continuum: Managements Does Not Understand

Postby Homer » Thu May 12, 2011 6:26 pm

Bitterman wrote:Yeah... And it's playing out in court this week.
From what I've heard crowns a tool, witnesses against the co are not doing well on the stand...
Some wonder why the case is even in court...
The theater going on is offensive...
Witnesses, the inmate and police all get referred to as sir/mr./miss/mrs.
The correctional officer gets referred to as "the guard"


Wonder if it's the same tool who went after my buddy when he was a cop. He got stabbed by a 16 yo just below the left clavicle while on duty. He punched the little POS in the face once and ended up going to court on assault charges. The judge was not happy that the case went that far and threw it out without the defense saying a word, but it was 2 years of crap buddy had to deal with.
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Re: Use of Force Continuum: Managements Does Not Understand

Postby Bitterman » Thu May 12, 2011 6:50 pm

Homer wrote:Wonder if it's the same tool who went after my buddy when he was a cop.



Crown's name is Mark Poland..

I can see the guy is just doing his job, but man... 'Makes us all gun shy about using any force especially while out on escort and even worse when stuck inside a mental health facility...
I've been lucky, but know a few "guards" who've been assaulted by patients.. Everything from having piss thrown on them to nutbars smashing through supposedly shatterproof windows intent on attacking the officer(s) to one who was almost choked out... These examples are not by the inmate they were sitting on, but by other patients who happen to be in the ward.

'Think it might be better to take a few shots and then take a few months off in recovery at home sippin' beer on the deck than get dragged through the courts.
Admit nothing.
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Re: Use of Force Continuum: Managements Does Not Understand

Postby PPSC Lawyer » Mon May 16, 2011 3:13 pm

Bitterman wrote:
Homer wrote:Wonder if it's the same tool who went after my buddy when he was a cop.



Crown's name is Mark Poland..

I can see the guy is just doing his job, but man... 'Makes us all gun shy about using any force especially while out on escort and even worse when stuck inside a mental health facility...
I've been lucky, but know a few "guards" who've been assaulted by patients.. Everything from having piss thrown on them to nutbars smashing through supposedly shatterproof windows intent on attacking the officer(s) to one who was almost choked out... These examples are not by the inmate they were sitting on, but by other patients who happen to be in the ward.

'Think it might be better to take a few shots and then take a few months off in recovery at home sippin' beer on the deck than get dragged through the courts.


Hey - it's not cool to be calling out people by name. He *is* just doing his job.

It sucks that people second guess themselves - but that's the world we live in.
No longer with PPSC, but still 100% Crown Prosecutor.

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Re: Use of Force Continuum: Managements Does Not Understand

Postby Bitterman » Mon May 16, 2011 10:48 pm

PPSC Lawyer wrote:Hey - it's not cool to be calling out people by name. He *is* just doing his job.




Well... It's a matter of public record... I got his name outta the friggin' newspaper.

He's public servant... If he doesn't want his name published he should get a different gig.
Admit nothing.
Deny everything.
Make counter accusations...

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Re: Use of Force Continuum: Managements Does Not Understand

Postby PPSC Lawyer » Tue May 24, 2011 3:22 pm

Bitterman wrote:
PPSC Lawyer wrote:Hey - it's not cool to be calling out people by name. He *is* just doing his job.




Well... It's a matter of public record... I got his name outta the friggin' newspaper.

He's public servant... If he doesn't want his name published he should get a different gig.


I'm not saying it's under a publication ban or anything. It just isn't "cool".

Same thing goes for cops - they're public servants too.
No longer with PPSC, but still 100% Crown Prosecutor.


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