OC Spray - Use of force question

Discussion, questions on police use of force procedures.
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LeafLover
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Re: OC Spray - Use of force question

Postby LeafLover » Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:31 pm

Watching an officer arresting a uncooperative client could be compared to watching a Doctor operate on a Patient. Not very pretty to look at, a bit messy at times and the public would not understand everything that is being done, but at the end of the day the public is better off. Going off on a tangent here, but I recall watching a youtube video linked from this site where officers arrested a dude who was off his nut in a University. The comments were outrageous. The general concession was that the officers should have lined up one on one in a fair fight with the weirdwolf. Sort of like a Bruce Lee movie. I am a glutton for punishment and read the youtube and CBC comments under police stories. I hope it is just the nature of the faceless aspect of the internet that people post such extreme over the top and under thought opinions.
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Re: OC Spray - Use of force question

Postby Dave Brown » Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:27 am

Ever heard the story of people who lift up a car to free a trapped kid? Ever hear of people in combat who lose a limb and don't know it until it's over?

These are real-life examples of the effects of adrenalin on the human body. Ever hear of the tachypsychia effect? (Where everything in a highly stressful or life-threatening situation seems to happen in slow motion.) This, too, is the effects of adrenalin as a powerful painkiller.

Read the pathology report on the two murderers in Dade County Florida who managed to absorb MULTIPLE FATAL shots each, and still lived for another three minutes; long enough to kill two FBI agents and severely wound five others.

Physiology of the human body dictates that our muscles are not limited by their movement potential; they are limited by their pain threshold. Remove the pain threshold (through the introduction of adrenalin) and add in the limited blood flow to extremities, and one has a SCIENTIFIC and JUSTIFIABLE reason why it can easily take 10 fit and trained officers just to TRY to control ONE highly stressed person.

If you try to explain how assailants can have virtual superhuman strength in terms people can understand, then perhaps they can start to 'get it.'

On the other hand, people that don't 'get it' will never get it.

(Try to convince some wingnut vegan bar bouncer who spends his spare time counseling other vegan wingnuts into how to file LERA complaints against police that sometimes police need immediate pain compliance for the safety of themselves, the assailant and other citizens who need their help and don't have time to wait for them to deal nicely with some drunken out-of-control loogan! Talk about a losing cause!)

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Re: OC Spray - Use of force question

Postby bigbadjoe108 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:38 am

So I am at a BBQ at our friends place last summer and we ended up talking about a certain incident that happened at YVR a little while back. One out spoken gent actually said that it was retarded that "4 guys couldn't take one guy down." He actually went on to say " I could have taken that guy easy." I asked him what his skill set was, and also asked him what tactics he would employ to take down a guy that outweighed him by over a 100 pounds, could not speak english and looked like the fight or flight was about to kick in.

I also explained to him that not only are the police not expected to get hurt or killed needlessly, but also that if they do get hurt, it takes the sick leave of the cop, the OT for another cop to replace him, the OT for another cop to investigate the incident and that it was wholly unfair to expect the police to be Lawyers, bus drivers and ninjas as well! I told him that it wasn't finacially feasable to have cops be all things to everyone... but if he could train them in his style of CDT that would guarantee a take down of a subject with no injuries to anyone, he was wasting his time as an accountant!

It shut him up, but I am sure that he went back to posting his anti police gibberish to CBC as PEACELUVR15 when he got home that night anyway.

Sometimes I wonder why I even bother! :(

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recceguy
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Re: OC Spray - Use of force question

Postby recceguy » Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:39 am

How do you take down a guy who outweighs you by 100 pounds.....easy answer...kick him in the balls.

If that doesn't work I've got great cardio to get me the hell outa there :D
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Re: OC Spray - Use of force question

Postby meathead1 » Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:42 am

take out a knee. you can't fight well if you can't stand.
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Re: OC Spray - Use of force question

Postby Longarm9 » Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:25 am

I would suggest that the critical question would be, does the situation warrant the application of OC in general terms, ie. does the subject's behaviour fit in to the portion of the IMIM that involves intermediate devices? If so, then the fact that he happened to spray the OC on his glove as a means of delivering it to the subject is really irrelelvant. It sounds like he felt that was the most effective way to deliver it given the particular set of circumstances; points for inventiveness, I'd say.

Whether he was specifically trained to do that particular action is also irrelevant; he WAS trained to employ OC when a subject's behaviour is resistant to combative, so in that respect as long as it fit the IMIM, he acted according to his training.
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Re: OC Spray - Use of force question

Postby Toonces » Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:40 pm

meathead1 wrote:take out a knee. you can't fight well if you can't stand.

:stupid:
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Re: OC Spray - Use of force question

Postby Kopparoo2b » Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:40 pm

never mind...
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Re: OC Spray - Use of force question

Postby PPSC Lawyer » Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:41 pm

People really ought to look at the dates of threads they are replying to! :D

This file was reolved many months ago at this point.

Longarm9 wrote:I would suggest that the critical question would be, does the situation warrant the application of OC in general terms, ie. does the subject's behaviour fit in to the portion of the IMIM that involves intermediate devices? If so, then the fact that he happened to spray the OC on his glove as a means of delivering it to the subject is really irrelelvant. It sounds like he felt that was the most effective way to deliver it given the particular set of circumstances; points for inventiveness, I'd say.

Whether he was specifically trained to do that particular action is also irrelevant; he WAS trained to employ OC when a subject's behaviour is resistant to combative, so in that respect as long as it fit the IMIM, he acted according to his training.


I don't entirely agree. Now clearly if the use of OC spray wasn not justified at all, then the particular manner in which it was used doesn't matter. However just because it was justified, there may be some situations or scenarios where a certain type of application may not be warranted.

And again, training can be relevant. If training said "never, ever spray into your gloved hand because of ___", that would be useful to know.

As I mentioned, I was checking other sources, but I put my question here just in case I was missing something.
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Re: OC Spray - Use of force question

Postby Longarm9 » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:08 pm

PPSC Lawyer wrote:People really ought to look at the dates of threads they are replying to! :D

This file was reolved many months ago at this point.

Longarm9 wrote:I would suggest that the critical question would be, does the situation warrant the application of OC in general terms, ie. does the subject's behaviour fit in to the portion of the IMIM that involves intermediate devices? If so, then the fact that he happened to spray the OC on his glove as a means of delivering it to the subject is really irrelelvant. It sounds like he felt that was the most effective way to deliver it given the particular set of circumstances; points for inventiveness, I'd say.

Whether he was specifically trained to do that particular action is also irrelevant; he WAS trained to employ OC when a subject's behaviour is resistant to combative, so in that respect as long as it fit the IMIM, he acted according to his training.


I don't entirely agree. Now clearly if the use of OC spray wasn not justified at all, then the particular manner in which it was used doesn't matter. However just because it was justified, there may be some situations or scenarios where a certain type of application may not be warranted.

And again, training can be relevant. If training said "never, ever spray into your gloved hand because of ___", that would be useful to know.

As I mentioned, I was checking other sources, but I put my question here just in case I was missing something.


I was well aware that this thread was somewhat old and that your file had probably been resolved by now, which is why I didn't send you a more specific response in PM. However, I did feel it was a worthwhile discussion to have in general, which is why I put in my .02.

As for training specifically forbidding something, sure, that's a valid point. I was merely saying that just because someone's training doesn't specifically teach a particular technique doesn't mean that they are not acting according to their training or are going outside the scope of their training. Barring some specific restriction against spraying OC on your glove for some obscure and unknown reason, there's no real reason not to from a legal stand point. Now, if we're talking about kevlar slash gloves, one reason might be just that you don't want your gloves contaminated with OC, but I suppose everything comes out in the wash and even if they're ruined as a result, oh well, the bad guy is in custody. Chuck em and get the department to buy you new ones.

Anyway, this is just my opinion based on the training I've received in use of force and legal articulation. Take it as you will.
"Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing." -John Stuart Mill

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Re: OC Spray - Use of force question

Postby gotchya » Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:59 pm

PPSC Lawyer wrote:I don't entirely agree. Now clearly if the use of OC spray wasn not justified at all, then the particular manner in which it was used doesn't matter. However just because it was justified, there may be some situations or scenarios where a certain type of application may not be warranted.

Clarification please... :ponder:
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Re: OC Spray - Use of force question

Postby Jim Street » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:41 pm

PPSC Lawyer wrote:And again, training can be relevant. If training said "never, ever spray into your gloved hand because of ___", that would be useful to know.


You'll never find training worded as such. As use of force is dynamic there is no "right" way, or "wrong" way. There are "recommended" uses and the training focuses on when it could/should be used.

On a use of force continuum, there just aren't black and white guidelines.
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Re: OC Spray - Use of force question

Postby TacticsPT » Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:11 pm

Jim Street wrote:
PPSC Lawyer wrote:And again, training can be relevant. If training said "never, ever spray into your gloved hand because of ___", that would be useful to know.


You'll never find training worded as such. As use of force is dynamic there is no "right" way, or "wrong" way. There are "recommended" uses and the training focuses on when it could/should be used.

On a use of force continuum, there just aren't black and white guidelines.


And at the end of the day It's the subject and the circumstance that dictates the response, not the Officer

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Re: OC Spray - Use of force question

Postby meathead1 » Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:16 pm

real time decisions are never perfect.
When things get bad, I take comfort in knowing they could always be worse.
When things get worse, I take comfort in knowing they can only get better.


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