Lethal Force With Edge/Sharp Weapons

Discussion, questions on police use of force procedures.
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Sumo_CPO
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Re: Lethal Force With Edge/Sharp Weapons

Postby Sumo_CPO » Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:18 am

A.T.R. wrote:Ill stab him with what I have.


But how do you choose which one to stab him with.......? :mrgreen:
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Re: Lethal Force With Edge/Sharp Weapons

Postby Kopparoo2b » Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:13 am

EPS007 wrote:When I was trained in 1981 at Sask Police College. 30 feet was the distance, if you were attacked by someone who was good with a knife, they had the blade in you, before you could draw and shoot!

There's an old saying "Never bring a knife to a gun fight!"

Who is Jim STREET, not from SPD?? Shows a Fire Flash.


Is your real name EPS007? :mrgreen:

Just sayin.... We try to think outside the (avatar) box here sometimes....
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Re: Lethal Force With Edge/Sharp Weapons

Postby Longarm9 » Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:52 am

Almost without exception, a knife is a threat that could result in death or grievous bodily harm and should be met with deadly force. As others have said, every situation is different, and articulation after the fact is absolutely VITAL. My suggestion is if you think there's a deadly threat of any sort, EVEN if you don't directly see it (IE. telltale bulges under clothing indicating a concealed firearm or other weapon), pull your chunk and be ready; if you are certain you are in danger from a deadly threat like a knife, shoot center of mass and keep shooting until the threat disappears. If you have to put 15 rounds into the SOB, do it. If you hit him 15 times and he somehow keeps coming, reload and keep plugging him till he stops. Bottom line is you need to go home alive.

If you are involved in a deadly force situation and you are fortunate enough to survive, the Street Survival Seminar recommends you don't talk to anyone from your department (except maybe your lawyer) and don't write your UOF report until at least 24 hours after the incident if possible; the reasoning behind this is that because of what happens in your brain during a critical incident, your perceptions and memories will be distorted for the first little while. After about 24 hours your recollections will be clearer.

I've been somewhat troubled recently by some reports I've heard where police tazed a guy with a knife; I'm not saying the officers necessarily did anything wrong, but it concerns me that they may have used too little force and that it may set a bad precedent where the ignorant media and the public start saying things like, "Well, that other guy just got tazed, why did you shoot this guy with the knife?"

just my .02.
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Re: Lethal Force With Edge/Sharp Weapons

Postby TacticsPT » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:08 am

Agreed with Longarm on the shutting of the pie hole. In terms of articulation it pays to remeber that all fight/combat/lethal force encounters are situational and postional. By this I mean what is the situation you are currently in and what your position is IN that situation. This of course can change in a blink of an eye.

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Re: Lethal Force With Edge/Sharp Weapons

Postby North of 60 » Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:19 pm

Always look em in the eye so they know you mean business. The eyes will tell all and usually prevent them from busting a move on ya.

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Re: Lethal Force With Edge/Sharp Weapons

Postby mack_silent » Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:38 pm

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Last edited by mack_silent on Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lethal Force With Edge/Sharp Weapons

Postby WaterlooMordac » Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:13 am

Longarm9 wrote:I've been somewhat troubled recently by some reports I've heard where police tazed a guy with a knife; I'm not saying the officers necessarily did anything wrong, but it concerns me that they may have used too little force and that it may set a bad precedent where the ignorant media and the public start saying things like, "Well, that other guy just got tazed, why did you shoot this guy with the knife?"

just my .02.


I'm late in this thread, but I gotta say, I disagree with your "too little force" comment. Maybe I am misunderstanding you, or missing some details, but if everyone is safe at the end of the day how can that be considered "too little force"? I don't believe precedent w.r.t. the ignorant media should influence use of lethal force. (Yeah yeah, lofty dreaming)

The tazer was promoted as a "less than lethal" option, was it not? If it's available, and it works in the situation, then use it. If it's not an option (like you're not carrying one), then yeah, draw your pistol and fire. The media is ignorant. Some people are ignorant. That's life unfortunately. I had to explain to a friend recently that cops can't just shot objects out of a person's hand. They're trained to aim for the chest - biggest target to shoot. Of course, most people on here know more about that than I do.

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Re: Lethal Force With Edge/Sharp Weapons

Postby Jim Street » Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:05 am

he's meaning the precedent that gets set, edged weapons are deadly force. No one is trained to use a taser on a knife wielding subject.
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Re: Lethal Force With Edge/Sharp Weapons

Postby Homer » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:59 am

I could understand using a taser against someone armed with a knife - but only if you have adequate distance between you and the subject AND (most important) you have other officers standing beside you with guns drawn. If the taser doesn't work, they have to be ready to shoot. The taser should never be used by an officer without backup. It's a great secondary tool, but that's it. (Fun to watch it in use, though :twisted: )
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Re: Lethal Force With Edge/Sharp Weapons

Postby gotchya » Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:36 am

WaterlooMordac wrote:The tazer was promoted as a "less than lethal" option, was it not? If it's available, and it works in the situation, then use it. If it's not an option (like you're not carrying one), then yeah, draw your pistol and fire. The media is ignorant. Some people are ignorant. That's life unfortunately. I had to explain to a friend recently that cops can't just shot objects out of a person's hand. They're trained to aim for the chest - biggest target to shoot. Of course, most people on here know more about that than I do.

If you review the IMIM you'll find that a taser is used for person who are actively resisting,much like OC. Someone armed with a knife, is death/grievous bodily harm, lethal force is authorized.
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Re: Lethal Force With Edge/Sharp Weapons

Postby Longarm9 » Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:23 pm

Jim Street and Homer have got what I was saying.

My concern is that incidents such as this may create the perception in the mind of the public that the "appropriate" level of force response for an edged weapon attack is a tazer, causing them and the media to start crying foul when an officer (rightly) shoots a knife-wielding suspect dead. Just yesterday in North Vancouver, BC a rookie RCMP officer (why they mentioned the fact that he's a rookie, I don't know) was attacked and stabbed in the arm by a knife weilding suspect, whom he subsequently managed to subdue and arrest using his tazer. The officer who spoke to the media was careful to make it absolutely clear that the officer who was stabbed would have been completely correct to use deadly force by shooting the suspect.

While I commend that officer for his grit and determination and for completing the arrest of the suspect, if I were his Sergeant, I would be debriefing him after he was healed up and asking him how he came to the decision to use the tazer and why, and talk about why he probably should have used his sidearm. This is not with a view to shame or chastise the officer, but rather out of a desire to make sure he always came home safe to his family after his shifts and didn't become a victim of some knife wielding POS dirtbag on the street. The last thing I would ever want to do is explain to some officer's wife and kids that he's dead because he used a tazer instead of a gun on an attacker with a knife.

I hope my comments aren't perceived as being critical of the officer involved, as they are not at all meant to be. I have the utmost respect and admiration for his courage and will to win.
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Re: Lethal Force With Edge/Sharp Weapons

Postby WaterlooMordac » Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:37 pm

Longarm9 wrote:Jim Street and Homer have got what I was saying.

My concern is that incidents such as this may create the perception in the mind of the public that the "appropriate" level of force response for an edged weapon attack is a tazer, causing them and the media to start crying foul when an officer (rightly) shoots a knife-wielding suspect dead.


OK, now I get what you're saying.

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Re: Lethal Force With Edge/Sharp Weapons

Postby WaterlooMordac » Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:01 pm

gotchya wrote:If you review the IMIM you'll find that a taser is used for person who are actively resisting,much like OC. Someone armed with a knife, is death/grievous bodily harm, lethal force is authorized.


I'm not disagreeing about the authorized use of lethal force when someone is armed with a knife. My point was that less than lethal options are still available. It all depends on the situation. The IMIM isn't black and white. The taser is an option for situations anywhere from "actively resisting" to "grievous bodily harm or death".

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Re: Lethal Force With Edge/Sharp Weapons

Postby Jim Street » Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:55 pm

While it's an option, so would be OC baton, flashlight etc. Like I said, NO ONE should be trained to use a taser on anyone with an edged weapon.
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Re: Lethal Force With Edge/Sharp Weapons

Postby Longarm9 » Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:05 pm

To expand on the comments of the esteemed Mr. Street, the point is not that it's illegal or inherently wrong per se to taze someone with a knife in the sense that it would be viewed as unwarranted in some fashion, just as you would be justified if you had hoofed the POS in the nutsack with your size 13 steeltoes to stop him attacking you with the knife. You could crack him over the head with your baton, a 2x4, stab him or slash him with your own knife, OC him in the face, almost anything goes when you're facing death or GBH, but you SHOULD really be shooting him until he stops being a threat because that is the action most likely to stop the threat as fast as possible and save your life or that of others.
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