CBSA Defense Tactics & Handcuffing?!

Discussion, questions on police use of force procedures.
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Punisher-One
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Re: CBSA Defense Tactics & Handcuffing?!

Postby Punisher-One » Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:42 pm

gotchya wrote:
TacticsPT wrote:
gotchya wrote:If I remember correctly Ontario Place Security also has OC. I think this goes back to when OPP was responsible for security at Ontario Place. :ponder:


Hmmm, that has my interest peaked i think ill look into it. Do these guys fall under the new security act? or any other act?

They are Ontario Place's private security. I could be wrong, but I for some reason remember them having OC. There is the Ontario Place Corporation Act, R.S.O. 1980.


I knew a guy who did the job...from what I remember they are "Provincial Offences Officers".
I've heard of some "super-security" types carrying "dog spray" (basically K-9 pepper-spray) because they are "afraid of dogs"....questionable at best.... :crazy:

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Re: CBSA Defense Tactics & Handcuffing?!

Postby upcomer » Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:38 am

I don't see why SBSO is such a bad idea. Correct me if I'm wrong but won't a SBSO have a regular member within two meters of them at all time? I understand where everyone is coming form here with letting civilian students, who may very well be immature and not take this position seriously working at our borders. After all, there was a story in the news a few years back where student officers were taking inappropriate pictures on facebook while at Rigaud, as well as making some other crude comments. But apart from that, it gives young people like myself an opportunity to get some goverment, law enforcement type job experience under their belt, and even to hopefully get bridged to a regular member. I'm sure when applying for a police force they would also be impressed with such experience.

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Re: CBSA Defense Tactics & Handcuffing?!

Postby Gadget » Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:58 am

upcomer wrote:I don't see why SBSO is such a bad idea. Correct me if I'm wrong but won't a SBSO have a regular member within two meters of them at all time? I understand where everyone is coming form here with letting civilian students, who may very well be immature and not take this position seriously working at our borders. After all, there was a story in the news a few years back where student officers were taking inappropriate pictures on facebook while at Rigaud, as well as making some other crude comments. But apart from that, it gives young people like myself an opportunity to get some goverment, law enforcement type job experience under their belt, and even to hopefully get bridged to a regular member. I'm sure when applying for a police force they would also be impressed with such experience.


Because the student program was seriously abused by management. Examples:

1. Summer recruitment alone would often represent a 20%+ increase in our numbers from students alone. Needing that type of staffing and staffing those positions solely with students is indicative of some huge problems.

2. Having a regular officer come on shift to find that there are only 4 regular officers and 14 student officers on shift is a ridiculous and unsafe situation. Where's all your knowledge and expertise?

3. Management is a firm believer in using insignia to denote rank, but only when it applies to themselves. Every single opportunity the Union used to have students clearly marked or identifiable as such was thwarted. Auxiliaries in the police are identifiable. Students with the RCMP are too. Not with us. Why do you think that is?

4. Every article you read will have a media officer from the CBSA tell you that students are always directly supervised by a full time officer. The reality is that CBSA management does not recognize that a full time officer is of a higher rank than a student officer (otherwise a rank insignia would be needed). Student officers are also told during their training (by management) that they are not obliged to follow the orders of a full time officer, and believe me, they often they took full advantage of that advice.

5. To CBSA management, supervision means the ability to contact a supervisor by telephone. Ask the lone student officer at the port of Roosville how secure they felt about that one!

6. The program would often be a huge waste of money given the 2-3 weeks of classroom training and 3-5 days of CDT training for a person whose entire time with us would amount to less than 90 days. That $$ would be better used hiring full or part time officers.

7. Students returning summer after summer would have to be retrained for 2 weeks every time they returned, with some coming back up to 6 or 7 summers in a row. That $$ would be better used hiring full or part time officers.

8. Are you aware of any other professional law enforcement organization that uses students in such an all encompassing capacity and in such numbers as the CBSA does?

9. The student program should be about giving students the opportunity to garner some Government work experience and make better choices as to a career path, not to replace full time law enforcement professionals.
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Re: CBSA Defense Tactics & Handcuffing?!

Postby Borderwatchman » Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:02 am

Would you want a half assed trained student firefighter responding to your burning house, with a full timer nearby? How about a three week trained paramedic? The only thing Students are are cheap labour. It stains the reputation of the agency by having these immature twits at our borders. I would only have students somewhere in an office, pushing paper or typing something. That's it.

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Re: CBSA Defense Tactics & Handcuffing?!

Postby TacticsPT » Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:14 pm

I knew a guy who did the job...from what I remember they are "Provincial Offences Officers".
I've heard of some "super-security" types carrying "dog spray" (basically K-9 pepper-spray) because they are "afraid of dogs"....questionable at best.... :crazy:[/quote]


I found a job posting for a student security officer (student security officer?) on the website. The job posting is as follows

Student Security Officers

General Responsibilities:
Student Security Officers work as part of the security team to ensure the safety of the park, its patrons and staff. General responsibilities include: interacting with guests to provide direction, clarifying information relating to site operations, crowd control and assisting to diffuse situations.

Qualifications:
Applicants must have a general knowledge of law enforcement and be able to understand and apply generally accepted safety and security techniques. Applicants must possess superior public relations skills, excellent written and verbal communications skills and be willing to work a rotating shift schedule.

* A valid Basic CPR and Standard First Aid certificate are required for this position and must be acquired prior before commencing employment.

What provinicial offences would they enforce on thier own property?

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Re: CBSA Defense Tactics & Handcuffing?!

Postby gotchya » Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:05 pm

Gadget wrote:Student officers are also told during their training (by management) that they are not obliged to follow the orders of a full time officer, and believe me, they often they took full advantage of that advice.

I think that the spirit of that advice was so that they would not be abused. If a full-time BSO gives me some advice or asks me to do something I will. Any SBSO who claims to know more that a full-time BSO who spent half a year at training is just plain crazy. :crazy: In any job, you should always listen to the advice of those senior to you. If you don't agree, don't do it. But ultimately they have been doing it for ___ long, and frankly I don't think (and I hope) a BSO would give advice that would get a SBSO in trouble.
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Re: CBSA Defense Tactics & Handcuffing?!

Postby Gadget » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:34 pm

gotchya wrote:I think that the spirit of that advice was so that they would not be abused.


What makes you think a full time officer would be abusive? Would the same checks and balances not be present that prevents Superintendents abusing their authority over me?
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Re: CBSA Defense Tactics & Handcuffing?!

Postby gotchya » Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:56 pm

Gadget wrote:What makes you think a full time officer would be abusive? Would the same checks and balances not be present that prevents Superintendents abusing their authority over me?

Ya, but they figure you've been through your paces and would have the backbone to stand up to an abusive situation, they might not have the same confidence in a SBSO.
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Re: CBSA Defense Tactics & Handcuffing?!

Postby gotchya » Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:56 pm

Do SBSO's get bullet proof vests?
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Re: CBSA Defense Tactics & Handcuffing?!

Postby Gadget » Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:09 pm

gotchya wrote:
Gadget wrote:What makes you think a full time officer would be abusive? Would the same checks and balances not be present that prevents Superintendents abusing their authority over me?

Ya, but they figure you've been through your paces and would have the backbone to stand up to an abusive situation, they might not have the same confidence in a SBSO.


How does this relate to a full time officer potentially using their position to abuse a student officer as you stated in your original argument?
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Re: CBSA Defense Tactics & Handcuffing?!

Postby SierraSeven » Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:12 pm

gotchya wrote:Do SBSO's get bullet proof vests?
They get issued spare SBA carriers, but they're filled with shredded paper. It saves on costs, and it fully maximizes the 'reuse' directive of the Federal Government's Reduce, Reuse, and Recycle Initiative implemented under the last Liberal government.
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Re: CBSA Defense Tactics & Handcuffing?!

Postby Boxer Dogs » Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:55 am

gotchya wrote:Do SBSO's get bullet proof vests?


I'm not sure if you're aware or not, but standard issue body armour isn't "bullet proof."
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Re: CBSA Defense Tactics & Handcuffing?!

Postby danoman » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:34 am

SierraSeven wrote:
gotchya wrote:Do SBSO's get bullet proof vests?
They get issued spare SBA carriers, but they're filled with shredded paper. It saves on costs, and it fully maximizes the 'reuse' directive of the Federal Government's Reduce, Reuse, and Recycle Initiative implemented under the last Liberal government.


I found out that I had to supply my own paper, I found the paper from the last day Paul Martin was PM. I found it very suiting.
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Re: CBSA Defense Tactics & Handcuffing?!

Postby kopitar » Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:06 pm

I'm a new SBSO and fully motivated to work. I am also looking forward to learn off the experienced BSO's as my dream is to become a full timer. I very much agree with a lot of veterans here on the student program, I can imagine immature students coming in just for the heck of it. But a lot of us are dedicated individuals, we slave through 4 years of school - that requires some degree of discipline. Coming in as an SBSO, I don't expect to replace a veteran BSO, but instead, to assist them, and hopefully the veteran BSO would be kind enough to take me under his/her wings. And I am very confident that the current veterans here are more than willing to train a new generation of BSO's.

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Re: CBSA Defense Tactics & Handcuffing?!

Postby jazz » Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:21 pm

Do many students fail the CDT training?
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