Cop out of earshot hears remark, confronts pedestrians.

General Law Enforcement discussion which does not fit into other channels. Post your thoughts and feelings about anything you want (LE related), or just vent those fumes about whatever is on your chest.
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Gadget
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Postby Gadget » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:18 pm

gogethimjohnny wrote:Let me get this straight in a public forum u are willing to state that if someone is not cooperative or respects your authority you will subject them to some sort or punishment whose sentence is made out by you and only you the customs guy........
" I'll tell you where to stand and youll be there until I'm good and ready to let you go"


No, I'm saying that the behaviour I observed would lead me to have a suspicion that something was out of the ordinary and compel me to investigate.

Only the courts can implement punishment. My ability to administer punishments is limited to "in rem" actions. What "punishment" are you talking about anyway?


gogethimjohnny wrote:WOW is all I can say about customs policies that allow someone like you to dish out punishment to he unsuspecting public that has probably done nothing wrong except excercise a fundamental right. You do know that the charter prohibits unnecessary dentention right?? And you guys want guns........


Someone like me? AND JUST WHAT is that supposed to mean? Are you implying that I am someone deserving of a title similar to goof or shitrat possibly?

I know the Charter very well, thank you very much. Maybe you should buck up on what is considered a lawful detention and what is considered routine customs processing.

Oh, and WTF do guns have anything to do with this?

Jeez guy, formulate a coherent argument willya?
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Postby Game Face » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:20 pm

Well that a chance I am willing to take. If your worried of offending people, and having people not like you, than perhaps the field of law enforcement isn't for you.

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Postby goaliegibson » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:21 pm

I think the comment about "Just because it's your right, doesn't make it right" is dead on.

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Postby Hired Goon » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:22 pm

gogethimjohnny wrote:Ok but to try and find a way to arrest or charge all out of some comment is really lame. Show some professionalism and let it go.


For the most part I agree with you, that most times, letting them walk away is the best idea, and the most professional . It's usually accompanied by me saying, "Yeah that's what I thought." However there are occasions when you may feel you need to use an authority that gives you the right to detain. For example if you think that the guy might be up to other things that are no good or lying about his identity. Those are the kind of situations where it would be useful to use that authority. I agree with you to keep it professional and not take it personal.

You can be dammed sure that the officer would never get up on the stand and say "yeah those shitrats called me the PO PO so I stopped them and jacked them up".


Exactly. You would phrase it in a proffessional manner, much like if you were in a fully justified shooting, you wouldn't say, "Your honor, that sucka tired to bust a cap on me, so I blew his head off!"

One step further, what if one of those "youths" got hurt during the arrest and SIU invoked its mandate. You can be sure that no mention would be made about the comments and how the "cruiser slowly backed etc".


As mentioned previously if the "youth" starts to fight, then that's a decision they make. You have to be comfortable in your authority, which I would be and could fully articulate (without even having to resort to the word "shitrat.")
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Postby Gadget » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:29 pm

SoonToBeOPP wrote:You call people saying "Po Po" out of the norm? Seems pretty common to me. You can scrutinize all you want but the comment was made, and if you don't like it, well too bad. That's Free Speech.


Yeah, you're entitled to free speech alright. You're also entitled to the problems you may create from exercising it too. That should be readily apparent in the last couple of weeks with the cartoon, mass riots situation.

SoonToBeOPP wrote:If I am in secondary inspection, I will wait for you to release me. If I am on the street, and I if the officer does not ask for my ID, and I am not under arrest and wants to chat, I will gladly turn my back, and walk away. I have done nothing against the law, and I will be damned if I let someone go far as to attempt to lecture me. on a comment I willingly stated.


People often fall into the "You can't say/do that......I don't have to do this or that" trap out of ignorance. Do not always assume that the officer you are dealing with does not know something very important that you do not, or have an authority you are unaware of. It can come back and bite you in the ass in the worst way.
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Postby gogethimjohnny » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:31 pm

Hired GOON I do agree with some of your comments but let me refrase my comments about SIU. I mean to say that is it worth all the hassle of the SIU etc if the person is hurt and you are trying to find a spin on the situation??

"well he called me the PO PO",

Solid arrest authorites are the key not some made up lets find a way to investigate like........" well the guy spit on the sidewalk and thats an offence in Brampton....."

Please you would have hard time spinning that to the courts...... a court may find that the offence was so trivial in nature that it did not warrent the outcome. Who wants to go thru this is all im saying. Sure talk to the guys but to try and arrest or find obscure charge to lay is lame. my 2 cents
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Actus Reus
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Postby Actus Reus » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:33 pm

I know the Charter very well, thank you very much. Maybe you should buck up on what is considered a lawful detention and what is considered routine customs processing.


Gadget is right on, but I'll draw this out a bit for clarification - all of our actions as Customs or Immigration officers are governed by the Charter of Rights, our legislation, case law and internal policies. Port of Entry members have a slightly easier time of it, because the Supreme Court has held that there is a lower standard of privacy when crossing the border. This means that Customs or Immigration do not need to meet as strict a test as elsewhere in Canada in order to search a car or conduct a strip search.

Nevertheless, we must have reasonable and articulable grounds in order to act. Simply overhearing a subject make a derogatory comment or even flip an officer the bird is not enough to detain or search. This would be an arbitrary detention or arrest and would open the officer up to discipline and the Agency to a lawsuit.

But, say the guy who put up his middle finger was also sweating, pacing nervously and making other insulting comments - a reasonable person might conclude that the subject was attempting to distract the officer from something in his car which would get him into trouble. A search would therefore be warranted, and this could be demonstrated while up on the stand.

Every time we direct someone to pull their car to secondary or empty their pockets, we must be prepared to justify why we did so.

Again, we are bound by the law and do not racially profile or 'punish' travellers for their poor attitudes. Any CBSA officer who engages in such behaviour will not last very long.
Last edited by Actus Reus on Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Stinger » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:36 pm

Gadget wrote:
SoonToBeOPP wrote:You call people saying "Po Po" out of the norm? Seems pretty common to me. You can scrutinize all you want but the comment was made, and if you don't like it, well too bad. That's Free Speech.


Yeah, you're entitled to free speech alright. You're also entitled to the problems you may create from exercising it too. That should be readily apparent in the last couple of weeks with the cartoon, mass riots situation.

SoonToBeOPP wrote:If I am in secondary inspection, I will wait for you to release me. If I am on the street, and I if the officer does not ask for my ID, and I am not under arrest and wants to chat, I will gladly turn my back, and walk away. I have done nothing against the law, and I will be damned if I let someone go far as to attempt to lecture me. on a comment I willingly stated.


People often fall into the "You can't say/do that......I don't have to do this or that" trap out of ignorance. Do not always assume that the officer you are dealing with does not know something very important that you do not, or have an authority you are unaware of. It can come back and bite you in the ass in the worst way.


I am fully aware that what I say could lead to problems, however knowing that I will take full responsibility for them. Trust me, if I am in a situation when I am dealing with the authorities, I ask questions. I will not let myself answer questions that I do not understand, or I don't have to answer. Thanks for my ID, I have done nothing wrong, you have no grounds to suspect that I have just committed a crime, and I am not under arrest. Have a nice day.

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gogethimjohnny
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Postby gogethimjohnny » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:41 pm

Actus Reus wrote:
I know the Charter very well, thank you very much. Maybe you should buck up on what is considered a lawful detention and what is considered routine customs processing.


Gadget is right on, but I'll draw this out a bit for clarification - all of our actions as Customs or Immigration officers are governed by the Charter of Rights, our legislation, case law and internal policies. Port of Entry members have a slightly easier time of it, because the Supreme Court has held that there is a lower standard of privacy when crossing the border. This means that Customs or Immigration do need to meet as strict a test as elsewhere in Canada in order to search a car or conduct a strip search.

Nevertheless, we must have reasonable and articulable grounds in order to act. Simply overhearing a subject make a derogatory comment or even flip an officer the bird is not enough to detain or search. This would be an arbitrary detention or arrest and would open the officer up to discipline and the Agency to a lawsuit.

But, say the guy who put up his middle finger was also sweating, pacing nervously and making other insulting comments - a reasonable person might conclude that the subject was attempting to distract the officer from something in his car which would get him into trouble. A search would therefore be warranted, and this could be demonstrated while up on the stand.

Again, we are bound by the law and do not racially profile or 'punish' travellers for their poor attitudes. Any CBSA officer who engages in such behaviour will not last very long.


Good post Actus.....lets focus on the last sentence
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Postby Gadget » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:45 pm

gogethimjohnny wrote:Good post Actus.....lets focus on the last sentence


If that's a challenge GGTJ, then I'll put my cards down.

My credentials, exemplary record, and 10 yrs on the job.......

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gogethimjohnny
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Postby gogethimjohnny » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:52 pm

never said you did not have complete exemplary record. im sure you do

Its that your comments have me concerned thats all, if we left it to average canadians Im sure they would agree.

How about it..................... what do u think average Canadians would think about your comments about making a person wait in line that gave you some type of attitude??
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Gadget
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Postby Gadget » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:55 pm

What, you gonna walk away in the middle of an interview/exam and leave all your personal belongings and your car behind?

Do you think I'm gonna let you walk away when whatever I think you may be hiding may be on your person?

I'd think the average Canadian would be just as suspicious as I would be.
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Postby Red_Rose » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:59 pm

Gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen. Please do not upset yourselves over the incident. Causing such chaos with the thread was never my intention.

Yes, there should be no restriction to a person's rights or his/her freedom of speech. But there is a difference between exercising the freedom of speech, and verbally attacking, abusing, disrespecting, or intentionally insulting a party.

Now-as Actus put it, I can not say for certain exactly what the two youngters said about the police officer. But when he heard the remarks, the officer judged the situation, decided their comments were unacceptable, and bad enough to be dealt with. I'm certain he knew what kind of comments can be shrugged off, and what can't.

As an onlooker, I honestly would have been puzzled if the police officer, knowing he'd been ridiculed in an unacceptable fashion, had handled the situation any differently. In my opinion, he did the right thing. And it's not as if he handcuffed them on the spot, dragging them kicking and screaming off to jail. In this day and age, some teenagers do need to be pulled up in this manner.
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Postby Steve French » Wed Feb 15, 2006 12:00 am

gogethimjohnny wrote:never said you did not have complete exemplary record. im sure you do

Its that your comments have me concerned thats all, if we left it to average canadians Im sure they would agree.

How about it..................... what do u think average Canadians would think about your comments about making a person wait in line that gave you some type of attitude??


As an "average canadian" it really wouldn't come as a shock, it's almost expected, and as an "average canadian" with no knowledge of CBSA's mandate or what they need to do I might question what the wait is, but would save the lawsuits for those with nothing better to do with their time.

Also, being an "average canadian" if i witnessed someone being a total jackass towards anyone (CBSA, Police Officer, Garbage man, Bus Driver) I'd expect whoever they were insulting...sorry whoever someone was exercising their rights to free speech on to set them straight.

I was raised to show respect and be polite, apparently not everyone else has been.

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gogethimjohnny
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Postby gogethimjohnny » Wed Feb 15, 2006 12:02 am

Oh well this could go on forever we must both be very pigheaded and have our opinions.

Anyway I hope that someone that 'gave u attitude" would not be treated any different.

Especially cause the said attitude could be only be someone having a bad day, they are made to wait in line until your honour Gadget lets them go.


Careful what u say in public about how you in authority treat people is my advice.
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