Store Security releasing offenders

General Law Enforcement discussion which does not fit into other channels. Post your thoughts and feelings about anything you want (LE related), or just vent those fumes about whatever is on your chest.
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Boxer Dogs
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Store Security releasing offenders

Postby Boxer Dogs » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:48 pm

My opinions are my own and do not reflect my agency.

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Re: Store Security releasing offenders

Postby IndictableChaser » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:31 pm

Ever listen to k billy's super sounds of the 70s?

"...if every time, Snot Boogie stole the money, why’d you let him play?
... Got to. It’s America, man."

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Re: Store Security releasing offenders

Postby John014 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:52 am

Looks good to me.
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Re: Store Security releasing offenders

Postby devilwoman » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:30 am

I work in 52 and can tell you the amount of Theft Under calls we get are insane. We have one LPO who owns his own company and use some his SGs to watch people he's arrested while he goes out and arrests more. For amounts as minimal as $3. I'm not kidding. One day he had 4 people arrested and each was under $10. The best is when he arrested a female for a toothbrush she forgot she had hung on her purse as her hands were full and paid for $50 worth of product. She sat in cuffs for 4 hours. :banghead:

I know, you'll say that it's a crime. It is. Absolutely. But you have to factor in, even though I'm pretty good at doing the case work in 45 minutes, that's still almost 4 hours off the road for one car. Keep in mind, were lucky if we have 4 cars on the road most days.

Even if I kick them loose, I still have to do a record of arrest (multiple text pages) and scan in notes and LPO reports. It takes time. Reports will still be done to show they were arrested, but not by front line.

I'm far from being easy on people, but there's a huge issue with having someone sit in cuffs up to 8 hours (which has happened). It's not right. We have far too little staff and too many calls pending to go to these.
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Re: Store Security releasing offenders

Postby CPO12136 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:21 pm

Quite a while ago when I was an LPO, Edmonton Police had an Alternative Measures program that LPO's could take.

Basically, if the person we arrested was willing to admit to the theft, ID wasn't an issue, and sign the paperwork we would release the subject and provide all of our documents to the nearest police station as soon as possible.

I am not sure if it is still in place as I have been out of that game for quite a while.

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Re: Store Security releasing offenders

Postby IndictableChaser » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:04 pm

devilwoman wrote:I work in 52 and can tell you the amount of Theft Under calls we get are insane. We have one LPO who owns his own company and use some his SGs to watch people he's arrested while he goes out and arrests more. For amounts as minimal as $3. I'm not kidding. One day he had 4 people arrested and each was under $10. The best is when he arrested a female for a toothbrush she forgot she had hung on her purse as her hands were full and paid for $50 worth of product. She sat in cuffs for 4 hours. :banghead:

I know, you'll say that it's a crime. It is. Absolutely. But you have to factor in, even though I'm pretty good at doing the case work in 45 minutes, that's still almost 4 hours off the road for one car. Keep in mind, were lucky if we have 4 cars on the road most days.

Even if I kick them loose, I still have to do a record of arrest (multiple text pages) and scan in notes and LPO reports. It takes time. Reports will still be done to show they were arrested, but not by front line.

I'm far from being easy on people, but there's a huge issue with having someone sit in cuffs up to 8 hours (which has happened). It's not right. We have far too little staff and too many calls pending to go to these.
:dropjaw: I thought you guys had civies to do all that backend stuff...
Ever listen to k billy's super sounds of the 70s?

"...if every time, Snot Boogie stole the money, why’d you let him play?
... Got to. It’s America, man."

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Re: Store Security releasing offenders

Postby Boxer Dogs » Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:03 pm

devilwoman wrote:I work in 52 and can tell you the amount of Theft Under calls we get are insane. We have one LPO who owns his own company and use some his SGs to watch people he's arrested while he goes out and arrests more. For amounts as minimal as $3. I'm not kidding. One day he had 4 people arrested and each was under $10. The best is when he arrested a female for a toothbrush she forgot she had hung on her purse as her hands were full and paid for $50 worth of product. She sat in cuffs for 4 hours. :banghead:

I know, you'll say that it's a crime. It is. Absolutely. But you have to factor in, even though I'm pretty good at doing the case work in 45 minutes, that's still almost 4 hours off the road for one car. Keep in mind, were lucky if we have 4 cars on the road most days.

Even if I kick them loose, I still have to do a record of arrest (multiple text pages) and scan in notes and LPO reports. It takes time. Reports will still be done to show they were arrested, but not by front line.

I'm far from being easy on people, but there's a huge issue with having someone sit in cuffs up to 8 hours (which has happened). It's not right. We have far too little staff and too many calls pending to go to these.
I think the program is a good idea, especially if your call volume is busy. He arrested 4 people for stuff under $10? How about getting the stuff back and telling them to take a hike? I’ve never done LPO, but making an arrest for $3.00 is like me arresting someone for not paying their bus fare. I’ll either issue them a ticket or tell them to walk. I think they used to have something similar in Vancouver, but I believe the scrapped the program.
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Re: Store Security releasing offenders

Postby devilwoman » Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:28 pm

I think the program is a good idea, especially if your call volume is busy. He arrested 4 people for stuff under $10? How about getting the stuff back and telling them to take a hike? I
I've told him that. Get CCTV footage, post their pics for his staff and next time bring them in. He refuses because it's his business and he wants to show stats to sell his business. Then he'll complain he waits for hours. Sorry, but a hotshot stabbing, person with gun, domestic assault, sex assault, assault in progress, threaten suicide, violent behaviour, etc take precedence.

As for civvies.....we do all our Form 9s and arrest/incident reports.
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Re: Store Security releasing offenders

Postby Madeline236 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:11 pm

I don't know the process but do know its already pretty much done that way in in a lot of places, more or less. If fact I know stores that don't even bother to pass details on to police if they get their product back in one piece. Say its not worth their employees time to sit and wait for police.

Was going to ignore it once but a perp started assaulting two LPOs so I stepped in to help. Even after being assaulted the store manager came out and checked that the DVD player was ok then said to he didn't want to press charges. She walked off towards other stores Im sure to do the same thing.

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Re: Store Security releasing offenders

Postby nightshiftvampire » Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:58 am

when i was previously in LP, we had what we called "protocol" with the city police. If the suspect had verifiable ID with verified address and no outstanding warrants than we could release by phone call with a desk sergeant. we basically had a direct number to a desk Sgt. instead of clogging up dispatch, we would call, he would run the name and address on the ID,if they fit protocol then we filled out a form from the local police that we have on hand that has the court date,offense occurrence and signed promise to appear. after the subject was released we would scan and email the protocol form back to the desk Sgt. directly. keeps cops on the road,keeps subjects out of cuffs for 8 hours and the LP gets to go home on time. everyone is happy! :alright:

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Re: Store Security releasing offenders

Postby Pete Broccolo » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:22 am

nightshiftvampire wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:58 am
when i was previously in LP, we had what we called "protocol" with the city police. If the suspect had verifiable ID with verified address and no outstanding warrants than we could release by phone call with a desk sergeant. we basically had a direct number to a desk Sgt. instead of clogging up dispatch, we would call, he would run the name and address on the ID,if they fit protocol then we filled out a form from the local police that we have on hand that has the court date,offense occurrence and signed promise to appear. after the subject was released we would scan and email the protocol form back to the desk Sgt. directly. keeps cops on the road,keeps subjects out of cuffs for 8 hours and the LP gets to go home on time. everyone is happy! :alright:
How could you POSSIBLY, legally, "release" the suspect on a PTA? Were you appointed as Special Constables under your Provincial law?
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Re: Store Security releasing offenders

Postby nightshiftvampire » Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:11 pm

Pete Broccolo wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:22 am
nightshiftvampire wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:58 am
when i was previously in LP, we had what we called "protocol" with the city police. If the suspect had verifiable ID with verified address and no outstanding warrants than we could release by phone call with a desk sergeant. we basically had a direct number to a desk Sgt. instead of clogging up dispatch, we would call, he would run the name and address on the ID,if they fit protocol then we filled out a form from the local police that we have on hand that has the court date,offense occurrence and signed promise to appear. after the subject was released we would scan and email the protocol form back to the desk Sgt. directly. keeps cops on the road,keeps subjects out of cuffs for 8 hours and the LP gets to go home on time. everyone is happy! :alright:
How could you POSSIBLY, legally, "release" the suspect on a PTA? Were you appointed as Special Constables under your Provincial law?
Read the article that was the reason for this post. My city has been doing this for years under what we call the "protocol" system. Same principal, keeps resources where they need to be.

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Re: Store Security releasing offenders

Postby EsivarT » Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:58 am

The article states that individuals are released with a letter that stipulates they may be charged and given a summons "at a later date."

What you've described is that rhe individual is charged and you've released them already with a PTA. Which isn't possible as an LPO. I think that's what Pete is talking about.

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Re: Store Security releasing offenders

Postby Pete Broccolo » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:56 am

nightshiftvampire wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:11 pm
Pete Broccolo wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:22 am
nightshiftvampire wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:58 am
when i was previously in LP, we had what we called "protocol" with the city police. If the suspect had verifiable ID with verified address and no outstanding warrants than we could release by phone call with a desk sergeant. we basically had a direct number to a desk Sgt. instead of clogging up dispatch, we would call, he would run the name and address on the ID,if they fit protocol then we filled out a form from the local police that we have on hand that has the court date,offense occurrence and signed promise to appear. after the subject was released we would scan and email the protocol form back to the desk Sgt. directly. keeps cops on the road,keeps subjects out of cuffs for 8 hours and the LP gets to go home on time. everyone is happy! :alright:
How could you POSSIBLY, legally, "release" the suspect on a PTA? Were you appointed as Special Constables under your Provincial law?
Read the article that was the reason for this post. My city has been doing this for years under what we call the "protocol" system. Same principal, keeps resources where they need to be.
EsivarT wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:58 am
The article states that individuals are released with a letter that stipulates they may be charged and given a summons "at a later date."

What you've described is that rhe individual is charged and you've released them already with a PTA. Which isn't possible as an LPO. I think that's what Pete is talking about.
Which is EXACTLY what I meant, so make sure that you are clear in what you are trying to say, NSV.
I had filled in the odd PTA, "back in the day".
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Re: Store Security releasing offenders

Postby OCCOP » Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:33 pm

Technically not legal. S. 494 requires a person when arrested by a citizen to be turned over to a peace officer. Phone is not acceptable, you can't turn a body over via phone...

I am not saying it hasn't been done, I know it has for at least 20 years in some places but I don't agree with it. I think for it to be truly legal it requires another actual/real change in the Law, not the police services trying to sneak (for lack of a better word) around the written law without changing the Law...

I get it, it sucks to have to waste police resources/time on this minor offence and has all sorts of Charter implications but I don't believe that it is technically legal. I've written on this topic before at length in relation to the potential problems (people charged under false identity documents, LPO mistakes in communication of information-bad CPIC results missing Wanted hits, etc.) this creates but none of them have reportedly happened and the powers that be don't care because so far it seems to work...

I don't personally like these half-assed programs (missing the actual step of making them technically legal), that were created for expediency and not made totally proper.

Its not a bad program...it meets a need but I still have problems with it not (by virtue of the formal written law found in the Criminal Code section 494) being technically legal.
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