[Ontario] Private property & Road Signs Enforceable?

General Law Enforcement discussion which does not fit into other channels. Post your thoughts and feelings about anything you want (LE related), or just vent those fumes about whatever is on your chest.
Celavia
Rookie Member
Posts: 0
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:51 pm
Contact:

[Ontario] Private property & Road Signs Enforceable?

Postby Celavia » Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:06 pm

Hello, first post here. I’m asking out of genuine curiosity, as I am currently a police foundations student and studying the different provincial legislations. Don’t worry, you are not answering my homework, if that’s what you’re wondering! :)

I have a question in regards to private property having Stop Signs and such. As I understand, HTA does not apply to private properties in Ontario. Does that mean these signs are basically not enforceable?

In that same sense, would it become enforcable if a sign was put on all entry to property according to Trespass to Property Act to “Obey all signs on property,” and if drivers fail to obey, then it becomes chargable for engaging in prohibited activity under TPA as an alternative?

Lastly, if the second question is “technically yes,” would court even accept the ticket, or do you think (or in your experience) they will simply throw it out?

If not, what can private property owners/LEO do?

Caron1992
Rookie Member
Posts: 0
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 11:30 pm
Contact:

Re: [Ontario] Private property & Road Signs Enforceable?

Postby Caron1992 » Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:38 pm

Celavia wrote:Hello, first post here. I’m asking out of genuine curiosity, as I am currently a police foundations student and studying the different provincial legislations. Don’t worry, you are not answering my homework, if that’s what you’re wondering! :)

I have a question in regards to private property having Stop Signs and such. As I understand, HTA does not apply to private properties in Ontario. Does that mean these signs are basically not enforceable?

In that same sense, would it become enforcable if a sign was put on all entry to property according to Trespass to Property Act to “Obey all signs on property,” and if drivers fail to obey, then it becomes chargable for engaging in prohibited activity under TPA as an alternative?

Lastly, if the second question is “technically yes,” would court even accept the ticket, or do you think (or in your experience) they will simply throw it out?

If not, what can private property owners/LEO do?




...And my whole post didn't save. Short form no HTA doesn't apply on private roads but yes enforced under TPA engaged in prohibited activity. Secondly, the ticket will stand. Happens all the time on campus with special constables enforcing the TPA for stop signs and speed as they can issue PONs on property.
Special Constable
Hired June 2017

TPS
Applied: October 2017
Written LFI/PBQ: October 2017
Interview: November 2017
MMPI: November 2017
BGI: December 2017
Psych: December 2017
Conditional Offer: December 2017!

User avatar
Punisher-One
Poobah Overlord
Posts: 3768
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:59 am
Location: Redacted
Contact:

Re: [Ontario] Private property & Road Signs Enforceable?

Postby Punisher-One » Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:07 pm

Celavia wrote:I have a question in regards to private property having Stop Signs and such. As I understand, HTA does not apply to private properties in Ontario. Does that mean these signs are basically not enforceable?


Under HTA that is correct. HTA applies to a "highway". Look at your long form HTA for the definition of "highway". Basically "public" roads, driveways, and thoroughfares. Since "private property" is....well..."private" it doesn't apply.

Celavia wrote:In that same sense, would it become enforcable if a sign was put on all entry to property according to Trespass to Property Act to “Obey all signs on property,” and if drivers fail to obey, then it becomes chargable for engaging in prohibited activity under TPA as an alternative?


Legally yes. Clearly visible signs defining what behaviors/actions are considered "prohibited" on the property are legally enforceable under the TPA. See the TPA S.5 and S.6 for signage rules. Keep in mind one may be able to argue successfully in court that said prohibited behaviors/actions (depending on what they are) are a violation of a charter right and/or discriminatory in some way.

Celavia wrote:Lastly, if the second question is “technically yes,” would court even accept the ticket, or do you think (or in your experience) they will simply throw it out?


Yep. Keeping in mind that a Police Officer is the only LEO that can actually lay the TPA charge. Security Guards and MLEO do not have Provincial Offenses authorities to lay charges. Special Constables are likely sworn to lay Provincial Offenses Act charges.

Celavia wrote:If not, what can private property owners/LEO do?


Security Guards/property owners - not a whole lot. Legally you can trespass people or arrest them for TPA offenses but do you really think that an arrest is a reasonable solution to mom or pop rolling a stop sign? I sincerely hope not. That type of enforcement action is unreasonable for such a minor HTA offense. Your property management probably wouldn't like the optics of his security arresting everyone for rolling the mall's stop sign. Not to mention the local Police you legally must call in and turn over said person to. Probably not serious enough to call a Police Officer in from a duty that may be more important right? Right!

As far as serious issues of safety (like racing, stunt driving, ect) there are criminal code provisions that Law Enforcement (Police/Special Constables) can utilize to deal with serious and dangerous behavior involving vehicles on private property. If that type of behavior is not deterred by a uniformed security presence showing up then I'd advise a call to the local Police re: dangerous driving.

To give a real world example; going back a decade and a bit I was a security guard at a large mall. Nice summer nights we'd get a lot of "fast and the furious" types in the lot hanging out with the cars having a coffee and shooting the breeze. Most were great and just chatted but some did start to do the burnouts/donuts. Once that started up we'd roll up in a clearly marked SECURITY car and politely tell em it was time to go. The behaviour (and related safety issues) would stop and the situation would be over. Nothing more was really required. Only ever called the Police a few times when we felt it the driving behaviour was very dangerous or we saw booze with people driving. The local Police in the area were always prompt to respond and deal with the situation.

Comm123
Rookie Member
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:22 pm
Contact:

Re: [Ontario] Private property & Road Signs Enforceable?

Postby Comm123 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:19 am

Celavia wrote:I have a question in regards to private property having Stop Signs and such. As I understand, HTA does not apply to private properties in Ontario. Does that mean these signs are basically not enforceable?


As others have mentioned, private property does not apply under the HTA as it is not considered a "highway" under the definition therefore it wouldn't be enforceable under the HTA.

We get calls for PD's in parking lots and other private property structures (driveways) and have to explain that they need to exchange info and call their insurance.

Celavia wrote:In that same sense, would it become enforcable if a sign was put on all entry to property according to Trespass to Property Act to “Obey all signs on property,” and if drivers fail to obey, then it becomes chargable for engaging in prohibited activity under TPA as an alternative?


Yes technically you can lay a TPA related offence and that would be an alternative; but in the grand scheme of things would you really want to. If the guy is a bandit, gang banger, SIP guy then it's up to you (Personally, I would just to get a name for intel purposes), It's about knowing your authorities and articulation.

Celavia wrote:Lastly, if the second question is “technically yes,” would court even accept the ticket, or do you think (or in your experience) they will simply throw it out?


Depends on the court, JP and Crown. In my experience most people just pay the LLA, TPA ticket because it doesn't go against their driving record and doesn't affect their insurance premiums. I've only ever had one guy fight a LLA ticket I gave him.


Celavia wrote:If not, what can private property owners/LEO do?


If the driving offence becomes criminal (Impaired, Dangerous Operation, FTR Crim Code, Flight From Police) then as a peace officer we can arrest and enforce the criminal code side of things. I've arrested two guys in Parking lots for over 80, In the Project ERASE training if a vehicle is performing stunts in a parking lot then we could go Dangerous Operation, or even enforce the EPA (theres a few charges you could lay under the EPA). I've seen some of the MCI guys lay charges for FTR cause death Crime code in parking lots.

nhlmod
Rookie Member
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:14 pm
Contact:

Re: [Ontario] Private property & Road Signs Enforceable?

Postby nhlmod » Thu May 10, 2018 8:03 am

I've been thinking about this recently and was wondering how it comes to be that the 407 highway in Ontario is enforceable for the HTA. It is privately owned and therefore private property is it not? I'm sure there is something that enables it but I can't find it. Was also thinking if you spent enough money if you may have a chance of winning on that kind of argument in court. Of course it would be a court battle going on years and years and costing a tonne of money, far more then the ticket, but it would be kind of interesting.

User avatar
No 20 Year Medal
King Poobah
Posts: 1862
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:10 pm
Location: Collecting shoulder flashes in the CFL Club
Contact:

Re: [Ontario] Private property & Road Signs Enforceable?

Postby No 20 Year Medal » Thu May 10, 2018 9:14 am

nhlmod wrote:...I'm sure there is something that enables it but I can't find it...
It took me less than a minute.

As per sec. 12(3) of the Highway 407 Act, 1998, S.O. 1998, c. 28
(3) For the purposes of the Highway Traffic Act, Highway 407 is a highway, and shall be deemed to have been designated as a Class A Highway in regulations made under that Act, and shall be treated as a controlled-access highway as described in the Schedules under that Act. 1998, c. 28, s. 12 (3).

https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/98h28#BK31
POLICE CONSTABLE

My patch traders page: http://public.fotki.com/No20YearMedal/

nhlmod
Rookie Member
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:14 pm
Contact:

Re: [Ontario] Private property & Road Signs Enforceable?

Postby nhlmod » Thu May 10, 2018 10:13 am

No 20 Year Medal wrote:
nhlmod wrote:...I'm sure there is something that enables it but I can't find it...
It took me less than a minute.

As per sec. 12(3) of the Highway 407 Act, 1998, S.O. 1998, c. 28
(3) For the purposes of the Highway Traffic Act, Highway 407 is a highway, and shall be deemed to have been designated as a Class A Highway in regulations made under that Act, and shall be treated as a controlled-access highway as described in the Schedules under that Act. 1998, c. 28, s. 12 (3).

https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/98h28#BK31


Interesting. Thanks. I didn't even think to look for a 407 act. I was looking under HTA. I don't like how a private company gets to use the government to collect tolls on its behalf when they aren't paid, but that's a whole other debate. I guess you wouldn't have much chance fighting this in court if ever you were charged on the 407 for something not crim code.

User avatar
ShadowBrooks
Veteran Member
Posts: 248
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:36 am
Location: British Columbia
Contact:

Re: [Ontario] Private property & Road Signs Enforceable?

Postby ShadowBrooks » Thu May 10, 2018 8:01 pm

Not Ontario - In BC parking lots are enforceable under the Motor Vehicle Act. Stop signs, distracted driving etc.
Commercial Transport Enforcement Officer
There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. Then there are the rest of us that have to pee on the electric fence to find out for ourselves.

wonka1990
Seasoned Member
Posts: 282
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:52 am
Location: GTA
Contact:

Re: [Ontario] Private property & Road Signs Enforceable?

Postby wonka1990 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:20 pm

Punisher-One wrote:
Yep. Keeping in mind that a Police Officer is the only LEO that can actually lay the TPA charge. Security Guards and MLEO do not have Provincial Offenses authorities to lay charges. Special Constables are likely sworn to lay Provincial Offenses Act charges.



Incorrect. However they likely wouldn't know how to, or have the appropriate avenues to lay the charges.

Any sworn Provincial Offences Officer can lay offence notices for any provincial offence. They would need specific authority to have full power under the act (Such as ID, Search, Seizure), however that doesn't prevent them from laying the charge. MLEO's are Provincial Offences Officers, and some Security Guards are sworn in as Provincial Offences Officers. That being said, I doubt any Security guard would be writing a TPA ticket since they wouldn't be issued Part 1's.
Opinions are my own and are not to reflect any views of my agency.

User avatar
IndictableChaser
Veteran Member
Posts: 274
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:20 pm
Location: Halfway Between the Gutter and the Stars
Contact:

Re: [Ontario] Private property & Road Signs Enforceable?

Postby IndictableChaser » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:19 pm

Caron1992 wrote:
Celavia wrote:Hello, first post here. I’m asking out of genuine curiosity, as I am currently a police foundations student and studying the different provincial legislations. Don’t worry, you are not answering my homework, if that’s what you’re wondering! :)

I have a question in regards to private property having Stop Signs and such. As I understand, HTA does not apply to private properties in Ontario. Does that mean these signs are basically not enforceable?

In that same sense, would it become enforcable if a sign was put on all entry to property according to Trespass to Property Act to “Obey all signs on property,” and if drivers fail to obey, then it becomes chargable for engaging in prohibited activity under TPA as an alternative?

Lastly, if the second question is “technically yes,” would court even accept the ticket, or do you think (or in your experience) they will simply throw it out?

If not, what can private property owners/LEO do?




...And my whole post didn't save. Short form no HTA doesn't apply on private roads but yes enforced under TPA engaged in prohibited activity. Secondly, the ticket will stand. Happens all the time on campus with special constables enforcing the TPA for stop signs and speed as they can issue PONs on property.


How do they do traffic stops if they don't have HTA powers (in Ontario?)
Ever listen to k billy's super sounds of the 70s?

"...if every time, Snot Boogie stole the money, why’d you let him play?
... Got to. It’s America, man."

Tango5
Rookie Member
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:34 am
Location: E Div
Contact:

Re: [Ontario] Private property & Road Signs Enforceable?

Postby Tango5 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:37 am

ShadowBrooks wrote:Not Ontario - In BC parking lots are enforceable under the Motor Vehicle Act. Stop signs, distracted driving etc.


Publicly accessible parking lots are considered highways under BC MVA.
... For the Grammar Police, get off my back, I wasn't born here.

User avatar
Pete Broccolo
Moderator
Posts: 446
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Weyburn SK Canada
Contact:

Re: [Ontario] Private property & Road Signs Enforceable?

Postby Pete Broccolo » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:00 am

A restricted number of sections of Saskatchewan's Traffic Safety Act apply to parking lots.
#32936 - Cst - RCMP - 1975-10-27 / 2010-12-29
"F" Div - 1976-05-04 / end (GD & HP / RTS)
Proud Dad of #54266 - RCMP - 2007-02-12 / date
RCMP Vets Assoc - Regina Div member
Husband, Dad, Father-In-Law, & Grampa(x6)

User avatar
Hattie
Veteran Member
Posts: 159
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:23 pm
Location: Here. Sometimes over there. Or other times over by that tree...
Contact:

Re: [Ontario] Private property & Road Signs Enforceable?

Postby Hattie » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:04 pm

Tango5 wrote:
ShadowBrooks wrote:Not Ontario - In BC parking lots are enforceable under the Motor Vehicle Act. Stop signs, distracted driving etc.


Publicly accessible parking lots are considered highways under BC MVA.

Same with AB but effective traffic control devices are usually missing...
Humour and sarcasm are my default options. Except on Tuesdays.

Tango5
Rookie Member
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:34 am
Location: E Div
Contact:

Re: [Ontario] Private property & Road Signs Enforceable?

Postby Tango5 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:22 pm

Hattie wrote:
Tango5 wrote:
ShadowBrooks wrote:Not Ontario - In BC parking lots are enforceable under the Motor Vehicle Act. Stop signs, distracted driving etc.


Publicly accessible parking lots are considered highways under BC MVA.

Same with AB but effective traffic control devices are usually missing...


True to that.
However, lately I see a lot of erected stop signs (or painted on the pavement) plus designated crosswalks. Step forward.
... For the Grammar Police, get off my back, I wasn't born here.

User avatar
Hattie
Veteran Member
Posts: 159
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:23 pm
Location: Here. Sometimes over there. Or other times over by that tree...
Contact:

Re: [Ontario] Private property & Road Signs Enforceable?

Postby Hattie » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:44 am

Tango5 wrote:True to that.
However, lately I see a lot of erected stop signs (or painted on the pavement) plus designated crosswalks. Step forward.

As long as the accused doesn't question the origin of the stop sign or measure out the dimensions of the painted lines to ensure they are actually compliant, sure lol. I have heard rumours of painted parking stall lines being articulated as solid lines... 8)

As far as stopping goes, if it meets the right definition of an intersection, drivers are required to stop regardless of lack of stop sign or painted line before entering onto certain roadways. Cross walks don't have to be marked just have to have two sidewalk end points which imply continuous travel across a roadway. But I don't find myself needing to patrol parking lots for good violations...
Humour and sarcasm are my default options. Except on Tuesdays.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest