EDiv A/Cst's petition to Minister of Public Safety

General Law Enforcement discussion which does not fit into other channels. Post your thoughts and feelings about anything you want (LE related), or just vent those fumes about whatever is on your chest.
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Re: EDiv A/Cst's petition to Minister of Public Safety

Postby Tango5 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:39 am

Absolutely right.
I could argue the Commitment and Devotion part.

All this what I say makes no difference anymore. The program, as I know it, is gone.

I will say tho that it was a great honour to serve with the members that I have made friends with the last few years.
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Re: EDiv A/Cst's petition to Minister of Public Safety

Postby Mr. Islander » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:01 pm

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Last edited by Mr. Islander on Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: EDiv A/Cst's petition to Minister of Public Safety

Postby Tango5 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:43 pm

Authorized.. to do what?
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Re: EDiv A/Cst's petition to Minister of Public Safety

Postby John014 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:37 pm

I think the issue comes with Auxiliaries that think they are RM's.
Or the ones that continue to argue with RM's about how important they are and how the RCMP would fall apart without them.

Those types are annoying as hell.
If you choose Law Enforcement you LOSE the right to be unfit.

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Re: EDiv A/Cst's petition to Minister of Public Safety

Postby Tango5 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:54 pm

Correct. Despite consensus on this forum..
I am not one of those.
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Re: EDiv A/Cst's petition to Minister of Public Safety

Postby Tango5 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:13 pm

Mr. Islander wrote:
Tango5 wrote:As far as you are right about what technically constitutes a traffic stop you keep ignoring the fact that I didn’t initiate the contact.
What should have I done when asked questions?, ignore it?, tell the guy it’s ok?, go on Sir?
Remember, people are seeing a cop car, people are watching. They know what the conversation is about given the circumstances.

What would you have done in my shoes when approached or contacted or ingaged or waved down or whatever the situation was?


Simple. You inform the person(s) that you are not a police officer and promptly advise them to contact their local service/detachment with the question/concern that they have. I worked as a provincial peace officer before I became a cop, and our uniforms were similar to the municipal police. On numerous occasions, I had people approach me thinking I was a police officer. I simply informed them I was not, and gave them the phone number to the local service.

Tango5 wrote:Plus, this was just an unmarked.
I have spent 10’s and 10’s of shifts in a marked unit and... was waved down where I had to deal with what’s on plate till regs came.


That’s scary, and my response is the same as above. Were you authorized to do that without a RM with you?


Authorized to do what without an RM present?
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Re: EDiv A/Cst's petition to Minister of Public Safety

Postby allbrancereal » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:16 am

Maybe its just me but I would not mind having some help around. I have heard of Aux's making RM's lives a lot easier. Time spent on administrative tasks such as picking up/dropping off paperwork, driving a complainant home etc can eat up 1-2 hours of my time while I could be taking another call.

I doubt my service would ever roll out a cadet/volunteer program.

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Re: EDiv A/Cst's petition to Minister of Public Safety

Postby NSAUX » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:42 am

allbrancereal wrote:Maybe its just me but I would not mind having some help around. I have heard of Aux's making RM's lives a lot easier. Time spent on administrative tasks such as picking up/dropping off paperwork, driving a complainant home etc can eat up 1-2 hours of my time while I could be taking another call.

I doubt my service would ever roll out a cadet/volunteer program.


I think for the most part the RMs liked having an Aux present. I realized some overstepped their role but I know in my Det. here in NS. We never worked on our own and always had overwatch. I used to get calls at home asking if I was coming out because you got known and trusted by the ones you worked with all the time. I know things like directing traffic at MVAs, helping at CPs, watching the back seat passengers, just being present at vehicle stops, looking after the kids at domestics, blocking a road at a crime scene. Lots of jobs that free up a RM for a more important task. Sadly I don't think I will ever be back out again by the looks of things.

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Re: EDiv A/Cst's petition to Minister of Public Safety

Postby Tango5 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:44 am

Ok guys enough with this driving cars, talking to people and not being under supervision of an RM.. etc, etc. as overstepping boundaries.

The back of my ID card states;

“Person identified by this card is an Auxiliary Constable appointed under the BC Police Act. Peace Officer Authority is restricted to the performance of duties authorized by the Commanding Officer. RCMP E Division”
— not mandates, policies etc

However, I will say, that I agree with a lot of comments and concerns raised on this board.

Considering the wording under BC PolicecAct..
“8 (3) Subject to the regulations, an auxiliary constable has the powers, duties and immunities of a provincial constable.”

So, without of sounding argumentative, if the EDiv CO feels I am authorized to do this or that.. it’s his/hers call. If they feel like giving us unrestricted status, they will.
Like I said, I don’t make those decisions.

I doubt, the bigger detachments with full of Commisioned Officers walking around..would risk bending decisions. The small ones... I don’t know.

This is how I understand all this.

Edited to ad info.
Last edited by Tango5 on Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: EDiv A/Cst's petition to Minister of Public Safety

Postby Rareform » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:13 pm

NSAUX wrote:
allbrancereal wrote:Maybe its just me but I would not mind having some help around. I have heard of Aux's making RM's lives a lot easier. Time spent on administrative tasks such as picking up/dropping off paperwork, driving a complainant home etc can eat up 1-2 hours of my time while I could be taking another call.

I doubt my service would ever roll out a cadet/volunteer program.


I think for the most part the RMs liked having an Aux present. I realized some overstepped their role but I know in my Det. here in NS. We never worked on our own and always had overwatch. I used to get calls at home asking if I was coming out because you got known and trusted by the ones you worked with all the time. I know things like directing traffic at MVAs, helping at CPs, watching the back seat passengers, just being present at vehicle stops, looking after the kids at domestics, blocking a road at a crime scene. Lots of jobs that free up a RM for a more important task. Sadly I don't think I will ever be back out again by the looks of things.


One on of my old work friends used to be an Auxiliary. He was gung-ho to help the RCMP and community, and gave as many hours as possible. He did some community policing, but was primarily on the operational side of things. He pretty much did everything mentioned in your post on a regular basis, and was included by RMs in a lot of other operational tasks -- helicopter patrols looking for grow-ops for example. To my understanding, he was one of the detachment's favorite Auxiliaries and like you, would get asked when he was coming out.

He hasn't been an Auxiliary for a few years and frankly, given all the turmoil I don't think he would have stayed given that the Auxiliaries in his area are pretty much benched. Unfortunate, but that’s just the way it goes.

Silverlining is the experience lead to him becoming a gaoler.
Last edited by Rareform on Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: EDiv A/Cst's petition to Minister of Public Safety

Postby DDOYYZ » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:21 pm

I think its pretty clear that there is a lot of differences across the country in the definitions and acceptance of auxiliaries. It is sometimes difficult to have these discussions with such wide ranging differences in the names of the various programs and their associated duties, roles & authority (both current and historical) and therefore people often have different ideas and beliefs about what an Auxiliary should do or not do or be trained on etc.

Calgary Police Auxiliaries where until recently, known as Auxiliary Cadets. It is job program that hires and pays 18-24 year olds and after training they work at the front counter and take reports and help with public inquiries, no operational or law enforcement role at all. To me from my perspective its perplexing why it even has the name Auxiliary or Cadet attached to it. It is a youth job program for the person at the front counter who will take my minor car accident report.

Winnipeg Police Cadets are part time or full time employees who are sworn peace officers and enforce provincial and municipal statues, assist in directing traffic. They even have their own marked police vehicles but they do not respond to or ride along with regular members responding to calls for service. To me it sounds like a great program...but its a job....I think of Cadet as a temporary position someone has while in training OR as what some kids do with Army/Navy/Air Force Cadets....not someone who can detain me and write me a real ticket in Winnipeg.

RCMP Auxiliary Constables until recently had a much more operational focus in many areas, sworn peace officers, very similar uniform, use of force tools...essentially a reserve police officer program in many ways, but with unpaid volunteers. The focus seemed to be far less on a program for younger people considering a career in policing to try it out and get a taste of it...and more about people in their 30s and 40s in established other careers who had life experiences and skills and local community knowledge to compliment the regular members. Often in many cases this included auxiliaries operating alone to do limited tasks.

Ontario seems to default to its Auxiliary Constable programs never being sworn peace officers and especially in the municipal agencies, not at all focused on law enforcement or directly hands on assisting or riding along with regular members. More of a marching at parades and community events and traffic control, searching for lost kids etc. I think this often influences the perspectives and opinions of many people on here.

I believe there are lots of reasons behind these differences, from legislation to strength of unions in some places to general cultural attitudes and political differences between the "wild west" out here in Alberta and BC vs Ontario. It's similar to significant differences in how the Alberta Chief Firearms Officer applies the law compared to the Ontario Chief Firearms Officer when it comes to ATTs as one example

And while the RCMP program sure looks like it is essentially trying to bench and walk back from the more operational focus (or what it now calls Tier 3) and therefore giving fuel to many people who think auxiliaries should be very limited and non enforcement.....many municipal police departments in BC are actively recruiting for what they call Reserve Constable programs that are full on operational, unarmed roles just like the RCMP one was (or maybe will be one day again under Tier 3.....)

My point is that we are often not at all talking about the same things when we are talking/debating on here about Auxiliaries as a generic term. A more limited, non enforcement program is going to attract and retain different kinds of people compared to the more involved ones with likely stricter recruiting and training standards.

All these different levels/tiers of volunteer auxiliary roles have value and have successfully contributed to policing in Canada for fifty years or more. Are they a critical, absolutely necessary thing that if cancelled will have all sorts of untold widespread catastrophic consequences?....hell no of course not. But this growing trend of just saying that, well times are different, just the way it goes, safety/liability etc. Its not really based on actual data or facts. While this thread sure does raise some interesting questions and discussions. There is no concrete data showing an increasing number of injuries or deaths for Auxiliaries, and there is no data showing chronic problems resulting from Auxiliaries overstepping their roles or consequences from an Auxiliary using force or attending a domestic call with a regular member and then working their regular job the next day. There is just too much successful history of these programs doing things at all levels/tiers and not enough significant problems to justify some peoples urgent need to shut down or severely restrict the various programs. There is unfortunately a long long list of bigger, actual problems facing law enforcement in Canada. RCMP understaffing and under equipping. Toronto police changes to staffing levels, recent changes to the Ontario police act and potentially government pushing for a greater role for private companies in law enforcement tasks. Public prejudging opinions every time force is used, just to name a few.

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Re: EDiv A/Cst's petition to Minister of Public Safety

Postby John014 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:33 pm

Tango5 wrote:Ok guys enough with this driving cars, talking to people and not being under supervision of an RM.. etc, etc. as overstepping boundaries.

The back of my ID card states;

“Person identified by this card is an Auxiliary Constable appointed under the BC Police Act. Peace Officer Authority is restricted to the performance of duties authorized by the Commanding Officer. RCMP E Division”
— not mandates, policies etc

However, I will say, that I agree with a lot of comments and concerns raised on this board.

Considering the wording under BC PolicecAct..
“8 (3) Subject to the regulations, an auxiliary constable has the powers, duties and immunities of a provincial constable.”

So, without of sounding argumentative, if the EDiv CO feels I am authorized to do this or that.. it’s his/hers call. If they feel like giving us unrestricted status, they will.
Like I said, I don’t make those decisions.

I doubt, the bigger detachments with full of Commisioned Officers walking around..would risk bending decisions. The small ones... I don’t know.

This is how I understand all this.

Edited to ad info.


Big differences between law and policy. Law will allow for a greater authority and then policy, which you are bound by as well, would limit that authority.

We will use the MVA for example. S. 122 is an exemption to peace officers, however an Auxiliary would actually not be able to use that section of the MVA despite the fact they are considered peace officers.
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Re: EDiv A/Cst's petition to Minister of Public Safety

Postby Mr. Islander » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:40 pm

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Last edited by Mr. Islander on Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: EDiv A/Cst's petition to Minister of Public Safety

Postby Tango5 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:47 pm

Mr. Islander wrote:
Tango5 wrote:Authorized to do what without an RM present?


To "deal with what’s on plate till regs came."


You are misunderstanding my statment, perhaps I should have used different words.
I will address your concern in a more detailed context when I have more time but.. short answer is Yes.
Considering.... We are out in uniform and in marked car, sent on road... authorized as for presence in the community.
(Think numbers game with an obvious chance to get waved down.)
... For the Grammar Police, get off my back, I wasn't born here.

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Re: EDiv A/Cst's petition to Minister of Public Safety

Postby Tango5 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:48 pm

John014 wrote:Big differences between law and policy. Law will allow for a greater authority and then policy, which you are bound by as well, would limit that authority.

We will use the MVA for example. S. 122 is an exemption to peace officers, however an Auxiliary would actually not be able to use that section of the MVA despite the fact they are considered peace officers.


Understood but using s122 isn’t really fair as we aren’t trained in the EVO, If we were this example wouldn’t be as valid as the policy could change at a stroke of a pencil. Laws don’t change that easily.

Besides the above, which is a very valid limitation example, in general;

Policies are policies and as far as I truly respect them and obey by (note please, detachments have latitude and discresion)., they aren’t Laws, and considering any questionable lack of action on my part while on duty raised by a plaintiff represented by a lawyer or Crown themselves, wouldn’t allow me the pleasure to hide behind those policies in the case of any criminal or civil charge in court of law.

Note: It’s not about what I did, but rather what I didn’t do when I actually could according to law despite the policy in place.

Am I wrong here?
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