Toronto police rolling out carbines

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IndictableChaser
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Toronto police rolling out carbines

Postby IndictableChaser » Tue Jan 19, 2016 11:06 pm

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/t ... -1.3409707

51 doesn't seems like alot even if they're just trying to equip one scout car with a carbine and less lethal. O and que the protests over "military rifles" :pistols:
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Re: Toronto police rolling out carbines

Postby Longarm9 » Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:04 pm

I love how they put up the huge headline about the police getting "MILITARY STYLE ASSAULT RIFLES" that are "high-powered"

When in fact what they're getting are semi-automatic civilian legal rifles chambered in what is arguably one of the least powerful center fire cartridges.

Journalism fail.
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Re: Toronto police rolling out carbines

Postby Rareform » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:18 pm

Longarm9 wrote:Journalism fail.


More like journalism hype. Can't be a problem if they don't use hyperbole and exaggerate it.
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Re: Toronto police rolling out carbines

Postby Dave Brown » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:49 pm

The man who tried to kill police officers with a boxcutter in Vancouver was painted by the media as a "poor, disadvantaged homeless person who wouldn't hurt a fly and carried a small graphics knife to make greeting cards for his friends."

He tried to kill VPD officers. Now you know why most of us rarely get involved with these feeding frenzies. (By the way, it was boxcutters that took down two towers of the World Trade Center and slaughtered thousands of people.)

Anyone who reads Blue Line has seen the dramatic evidence that shows a carbine is safer for both the public and the officers who devote their careers to keeping us safe. In addition to being faster and more accurate at distances beyond the real-life combat capabilities of handguns or shotguns, they are more efficient at stopping the threat, more effective at stopping a threat and penetrate far less should a bullet miss or go through the target during a dynamic situation. The average police-issue carbine round will not go through a single sheet of drywall after it passes through a threat, unlike both handgun and shotgun projectiles.

The quicker and more precisely a deadly threat can be stopped, the safer it is for the public, the police AND potentially the assailant. Every police or law enforcement officer out there who is protecting me and my family, deserve to make it home alive to THEIR families at the end of every shift. Bottom line.

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Re: Toronto police rolling out carbines

Postby Homer » Wed Jan 20, 2016 5:28 pm

IndictableChaser wrote:http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-police-rifles-1.3409707

51 doesn't seems like alot even if they're just trying to equip one scout car with a carbine and less lethal. O and que the protests over "military rifles" :pistols:

Yes, that 'information' was repeated ad nauseum on the radio this morning. So, they're providing enough rifles and beanbag guns for what - the street supervisors? Also the only ones with Tasers, IIRC.

As Dave mentions, the carbines will be welcome (if not 'high-powered' as the fear-mongers claim). But they'll need a lot more of them if there is going to be any positive impact on officer or public safety. It would be nice to have a less-lethal option in every police car in Canada, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.
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Re: Toronto police rolling out carbines

Postby IndictableChaser » Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:04 am

Homer wrote:
IndictableChaser wrote:http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-police-rifles-1.3409707

51 doesn't seems like alot even if they're just trying to equip one scout car with a carbine and less lethal. O and que the protests over "military rifles" :pistols:

Yes, that 'information' was repeated ad nauseum on the radio this morning. So, they're providing enough rifles and beanbag guns for what - the street supervisors? Also the only ones with Tasers, IIRC.

As Dave mentions, the carbines will be welcome (if not 'high-powered' as the fear-mongers claim). But they'll need a lot more of them if there is going to be any positive impact on officer or public safety. It would be nice to have a less-lethal option in every police car in Canada, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.


Lets try tasers, but we all know that got voted down.... :ponder:
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Re: Toronto police rolling out carbines

Postby Dave Brown » Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:33 am

Well, it's not really news because TPS is one of the last agencies in Ontario to issue carbines to street officers.

I consider it important to keep our officers safe and help ensure they make it home at the end of every shift. It is obvious from reading the comments following many of these stories that the masses don't have a clue what they are talking about but that doesn't prevent them from opening their mouths and proving it to the world.

I personally tested the latest in police-issue handgun, shotgun and carbine ammunition in back-to-back penetration tests for Blue Line Magazine to show how modern ammunition has evolved in effectiveness in stopping a target and lack of excessive penetration for the safety of bystanders.

My results virtually duplicated the very extensive tests done by the FBI. In fact, the bullets I recovered from my test media looked exactly like the ones the FBI recovered from their scientifically designed ballistic gelatin. I would therefore consider that my results may not have the scientific validity of the FBI tests, but they supported their results in real world testing outside the laboratory.

But before I get into the reason why I consider carbines safer for both the public and the officers in an urban area, I need to review some facts about police shooting that we are all familiar with, but many others aren't.

#1- No shooting is 100% predictable. Every police shooting involves a dynamic situation in which officers and assailants are moving, and situations change in fractions of a second. Once shot, bullets behave in completely unpredictable ways. The body is not a homogenous substance, and bullets can be deflected by muscles, organs or bones and end up in places one could never predict.

#2 - The human body has an amazingly designed survival mechanism. Through the self-protection mechanism of the human body, it is almost impossible to stop a deadly threat instantly. Even if shots prove fatal, an assailant still has the ability to kill many more people before they are finally stopped. For example, in the three minutes after Platt and Matix were fatally hit by FBI agents in Dade County Florida in April 1986, they still lived long enough to kill two agents and seriously wound five more. A LOT of officers did not go home that day.

#3 - Police officers do not shoot to kill; they shoot only to stop.

#4 - No one can ever predict how many rounds it will take to incapacitate a threat. Some may be stopped after one; others may not be stopped after dozens. The longer a gunfight lasts, the more dangerous it is to officers and bystanders alike. (Just remember ... officers need to be aware of their backstop at all times. The assailant doesn't.)

#5 - The greater the firepower that can be mustered, the less likely the fight will take place. No one wants a gunfight, least of all the police. If they can stop it before it happens by going in to a situation with superior firepower, it is safer for every human in the area.

#6 - The only two factors that result in stopping a deadly threat from a human being is shot penetration and shot placement. Officers shoot for center-mass because a shot to an arm or a leg would not stop a deadly threat. In fact, it would not even be felt, let along stop the assailant. In high stress situations, there is no blood flow to extremities, hence no ability to stop a threat, plus with adrenalin in the body, a person could be shot 20 times in the arm or leg and not even realize it.

So why are carbines safer? Well, let's look at what happens inside the design range of each respective firearm. A handgun is the primary defensive weapon for an officer because it is always with them. But in real life situations where someone is trying to kill them, accuracy falls off quite rapidly after about 7 meters. This illustrates the importance of good cover and in fact, the effective use of cover is one of the most important points that lead to survivability of officers in gunfights.

A shotgun can be fired at upwards of 50 meters or more, but again it's accuracy falls off after it's design range in real combat.

Patrol carbines can be accurately fired by officers at distances as far as 200 to 300 meters. Again, the rifle is accurate far beyond that, but when the bullets are flying toward the officer, this is the maximum range they can expect to get hits with any reliability.

So, number one, carbines are easier to fire and more accurate in most situations beyond that 7 meter mark.

Number two, multiple scientific tests - including years of FBI studies, plus our own results as published in Blue Line - show that a modern police-issue bullet fired from a 5.56mm carbine did not overpenetrate test media designed to simulate a human body. In our testing, 5.56mm police-iissue hollow point bullet fragments were recovered from within the test media. (The FBI considers 12 inches to be the minimum that a bullet must penetrate to reliably stop a threat.) Using two sheets of drywall behind the test media, to simulate an apartment wall, no marks were observed on the wall, and no fragments exited the back face of the media.

In contrast, a standard police-issue 9mm Luger handgun round penetrated 12 inches of test media, one sheet of drywall and buried itself in the front face of the second sheet of drywall. Only fragments penetrated the back surface. (This shows the effectiveness of the modern police hollow-point design!)

A shotgun loaded with an 8-pellet load of OO buck in a reduced-recoil police-issue load completely penetrated through 12 inches of test media, two sheets of drywall, and had enough force left over to knock a bowling pin off a table behind the drywall.

In an even more dramatic test, a shotgun loaded with police-issue slugs completely penetrated 48 inches of test media, both sheets of drywall and another 6 inches of test media behind the wall. (The fired slug never was recovered.) This represents four human beings, an apartment wall plus a kid in the next room.

Now, these tests are only for comparison. One can never relate them to the real world because there is no such thing as ideal conditions in a dynamic situation.

But the bottom line is this. The modern police-issue carbine round is likely to penetrate deep enough to incapacitate a killer, and then stop inside that target, reducing the hazard to others.

If an innocent party or another officer is in the next room, and an assailant is hit accurately - which is more likely given the nature of carbines - they could be sitting with their back directly against two thin sheets of drywall in the next room and they are going home alive that night.

Are carbines safer? Yes. I stand behind my results - even if (literally) it was me in the next room.

What if it were a handgun or a shotgun? Would I stand behind that wall in the next room?

Not on your (or my) life.

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Re: Toronto police rolling out carbines

Postby Ziggy Stardust » Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:56 am

Here we have yet another example of a police-related matter where the uneducated are experiencing a gut reaction to something. In this case it is a fear of those scary looking "high powered military style assault rifles" and the "militarization of law enforcement". But what is truly frustrating is that the media plays along stoking those fears and misconceptions rather than doing their job and educating the public about the scientific facts and allowing the public to form an educated opinion. More and more it seems that the media just wants to tell us what to think rather than allowing us to think. Sadly the information contained in Dave's excellent post above will never be presented where the average person will see it and the public, restricted to seeing only one side of this, will be duped into opposing what is certainly a more effective and safer technology for all. I'm all for a public discussion and consultation on this or any other subject but that discussion has to be had with informed people who understand both sides. I'm not afraid to have a debate this because I'm willing to hear what the opponents have to say and confident that the facts are on our side. If we are wrong; let's hear the facts that prove it wrong. That's how we get to the truth and make correct decisions.
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Re: Toronto police rolling out carbines

Postby Longarm9 » Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:34 am

Dave, as always your post is informative and well written. Could you get a spot on CBC evening news and share this with the rest of Canada? Joe Public really needs to hear this.

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Re: Toronto police rolling out carbines

Postby CBK » Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:35 am

But on TV you always see people hide behind a wall (2 sheets of drywall), a door or maybe the couch with all kinds of rounds (9mm, 357, 5.56 "assault rifles", and shotguns etc) blasting at them and they never get hurt at all.
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Re: Toronto police rolling out carbines

Postby Rareform » Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:54 pm

Longarm9 wrote:Dave, as always your post is informative and well written. Could you get a spot on CBC evening news and share this with the rest of Canada? Joe Public really needs to hear this.

(one can dream, no?)


I can see how it will go already. His information will be so shocking to the public and the naysayers it will have to be done as a silhouette (w/ a distorted voice) to protect his identity.

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Re: Toronto police rolling out carbines

Postby Dave Brown » Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:39 pm

Simplimatics wrote:
Longarm9 wrote:Dave, as always your post is informative and well written. Could you get a spot on CBC evening news and share this with the rest of Canada? Joe Public really needs to hear this


I can see how it will go already. His information will be so shocking to the public and the naysayers it will have to be done as a silhouette (w/ a distorted voice) to protect his identity.

LOL! Well, I don't do the silhouette thing because I stand behind what I say. If you notice, I kinda SUCK at inventing clever screen names to disguise my real identity on the Blue Line forum, and when people have issues about what I write in the magazine, I gladly give them the directions to my office in our 14-story office tower at 4918 Highway 7 in Markham.

In all seriousness, it's not Joe public I worry about if I appeared on CBC; it's gun owners. Some of them are convinced the police (and the CBC) are against them. They don't understand the politicians write the laws and the police only enforce them. They also don't make the connection that an attack on any law enforcement officer is an attack on all Canadians.

I once appeared on CBC because they asked me to identify a handgun based on a photo taken of a crime scene. A man loaded a handgun in his home and left to murder another person, leaving behind a suicide note. Police waited until they could box him in on a quiet section of rural 4-lane. Once he had nowhere else to go, he bailed out of his van with a fully loaded pistol aimed straight at police. He was shot before he could get a round off.

When I saw the photo, I knew instantly what it was. This was not some gangbanger's P85 or biker's cut-down .22 - it was a compensated 1911 .45 with a red dot sight. It was a bit of a surprise to see a full-on IPSC race gun at a crime scene, so I explained on air, why the police needed to respond with overwhelming force. I tried to explain the principle that one should try to stop a fight before it happens. I described the handgun as fast, powerful and accurate, and how it would have been a serious threat if that guy had gotten any shots off. I explain that the police likely saved at least a few lives that day, and should be thanked.

I didn't use the actual words diligentia, vis celeritus - the Latin motto of IPSC that means speed, power and accuracy - or even elaborate on how the entire sport is founded on those three basic principles. I didn't even use the word IPSC or even practical pistol shooters; I just said it was a powerful handgun with a red dot sight designed for fast and accurate shooting, and a compensated barrel designed for rapid target re-acquisition. (Well, it certainly was when I used a very similar pistol in all the years I shot IPSC - and I have one or two trophies stored in my basement to prove it.)

After the story ran, I received anonymous hate mail from a bunch of these gun nuts, and was widely criticized on several gun forums here in Canada. I had my expertise questioned and my knowledge about firearms attacked. One guy didn't know the difference between a compensator and a silencer, and tried to say it would be slower to re-acquire a target. Another guy confused red dot sights with laser sights and disputed my claim about it being designed for accuracy. (I guess all the police and military units that now use red dot sights FOR THOSE VERY REASONS must have escaped him.) Another guy went on a rant about how a tuned trigger is not the same as making a gun full-auto. (Where he got the idea about the tuned trigger is beyond me, and even I am not good enough to pick out that it had a tuned trigger from a photograph taken 100 yards away!) The stupidity and attacks went on and on, and they even took the time to criticize my work towards safety and responsible use in what I do for a living.

And these were the gun owners!

These gun nuts don't even know they are their own worst enemy. The average citizen will read their poorly-informed, anti-government, anti-law enforcement rhetoric and solidify their hatred towards all "assault weapons" and their owners.

Now you know why I passed on being a voice of reason on this story.

I just quietly help behind the scenes when I can contribute some common sense. I will always stand for safety, accuracy and responsibility, and I believe that people who protect me and my family, have every right to make it home safe at the end of every shift.

I will continue to honour those who have sacrificed to keep this country safe. I respect those overcame overwhelming odds to survive extraordinary circumstances. My heroes in life are not hockey players or sports stars - my heroes are people like RCMP Cst Brian Auger or FBI Special Agent Ed Mireles.

The folks who's job is to run TOWARD a building with a crazed gunman deserve everything we can do to keep them safe and help them make it home alive.

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Re: Toronto police rolling out carbines

Postby Bitterman » Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:45 pm

Better to have and not need than to need and not have.
Admit nothing.
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Make counter accusations...

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Re: Toronto police rolling out carbines

Postby Dave Brown » Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:50 pm

Much like a parachute or an IFAK - both of which I am huge fans of, even though I have never needed either.


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