Border Security Canada: Episodes Now Online

General Law Enforcement discussion which does not fit into other channels. Post your thoughts and feelings about anything you want (LE related), or just vent those fumes about whatever is on your chest.
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Bald Man
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Re: Border Security Canada: Saturdays on Global

Postby Bald Man » Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:54 am

Punisher-One wrote:
Bald Man wrote:Just curious, does CBSA train their officers to read US Miranda rights instead of Canadian Rights to Counsel?


No. The guy just decided to do that I guess....epic fail.


Maybe he lost himself in the moment because he was on TV. haha I found it odd that's all.

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Re: Border Security Canada: Saturdays on Global

Postby portcullisguy » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:07 pm

Shawshank wrote:Just so I am clear, when I say rip the car apart, I didn'tran just opening the trunk or glove box. Rather, I meant leaving the car in a state where it would take a degree of expertise and a number of tools to put it back in place.


Yes, this is possible and legal without any form if detention being triggered. You are not bound to remain during a lengthy examination, such as a detailed disassembly if a conveyance, but it would be unusual to do one if there were not already grounds to detain you. If the officer makes you stay for it, one could argue it's a detention. If they let you go and then we find contraband, then we're idiots for letting you go. The safest course is to detain and let you have your call to counsel if requested.

Now, another reason why taking a car completely apart isn't done a lot is because we're not mechanics, and we probably can't help put it back together without one, which incurs a cost to the crown (unless we find something). You are liable for storage charged on goods held, seized, detained, etc, but not normally for examibation costs for conveyances examined at a port if entry.
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Re: Border Security Canada: Saturdays on Global

Postby gotchya » Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:28 pm

Punisher-One wrote:Basically once I develop grounds to perform a personal search for contraband on your person (commonly referred to as a strip search) then I am taking you out of the "normal" process and must detain you and afford you your charter rights. Same thing if I, for whatever reason, contact our investigations unit and they will be attending the port to possibly proceed with charges you would be detained and afforded all rights and cautions at that point.
Ripping bags/conveyances apart, asking in-depth questions, conducting pat-downs, going through cellular phones, going through laptops, reading documents, etc is all considered routine and does not trigger charter rights.

Punisher-One has done a good job summarizing, if you're really interested you should read R. v. Simmons, 1988 CanLII 12 (SCC), [1988] 2 SCR 495, <http://canlii.ca/t/1ftcb>
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Re: Border Security Canada: Saturdays on Global

Postby gotchya » Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:35 pm

Bald Man wrote:
Punisher-One wrote:
Bald Man wrote:Just curious, does CBSA train their officers to read US Miranda rights instead of Canadian Rights to Counsel?


No. The guy just decided to do that I guess....epic fail.


Maybe he lost himself in the moment because he was on TV. haha I found it odd that's all.

I'm certain the officer read the subject their Charter rights in a more formal manner later, given that the subject was a foreign national and would also be afforded rights under the Vienna Convention (i.e. to have consulate contacted).

I'm fairly certain the officer's concern was protection the subject's Charter right, namely that of self-incrimination.

Most people understand Miranda rights, because of TV, far greater than that of their Charter rights.
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Re: Border Security Canada: Saturdays on Global

Postby Punisher-One » Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:58 pm

portcullisguy wrote:You are not bound to remain during a lengthy examination, such as a detailed disassembly if a conveyance, but it would be unusual to do one if there were not already grounds to detain you. If the officer makes you stay for it, one could argue it's a detention.


Not at all. The Officer needs to know his authority and articulate himself correctly.
Examinations of all goods entering Canada is considered routine and not a violation of Charter Rights. Every person entering Canada (which includes Canadian Citizens) MUST report their goods to Customs AND answer all questions in regards to their goods truthfully. Therefore I can articulate that since me looking through your car is considered normal AND you must answer all questions I have about your goods (car) then you must remain (not under any detention) to answer any questions I may have in relation to any of your goods and your declaration. Refusal to remain and answer my questions would result in an arrest for hindering under the Customs Act.

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Re: Border Security Canada: Saturdays on Global

Postby Bald Man » Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:27 pm

I have no doubt that he did, but reading something that is not applicable in canada and from another country is incorrect and just plain silly. Proper charter rights have to be read especially on TV. If he had time to read something from American tv, then he had time to properly arrest the female according to Canadian law. I've been in court numerous times when the judge and defense scrutinize an officers arrest and dissect every aspect of it, the court will have the officer read exactly what he read to the arrested person, it's typed out in the duty book so ever officer reads the same thing. One might argue that when the female was handcuffed it wasn't a proper arrest. That's all I'm saying. Other than that, interesting show that will give Canadians some insight and respect for our CBSA colleagues.

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Re: Border Security Canada: Saturdays on Global

Postby El Conejo » Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:45 pm

Punisher-One wrote:
portcullisguy wrote:You are not bound to remain during a lengthy examination, such as a detailed disassembly if a conveyance, but it would be unusual to do one if there were not already grounds to detain you. If the officer makes you stay for it, one could argue it's a detention.


Not at all. The Officer needs to know his authority and articulate himself correctly.
Examinations of all goods entering Canada is considered routine and not a violation of Charter Rights. Every person entering Canada (which includes Canadian Citizens) MUST report their goods to Customs AND answer all questions in regards to their goods truthfully. Therefore I can articulate that since me looking through your car is considered normal AND you must answer all questions I have about your goods (car) then you must remain (not under any detention) to answer any questions I may have in relation to any of your goods and your declaration. Refusal to remain and answer my questions would result in an arrest for hindering under the Customs Act.


Was gonna respond, but never mind; public side.

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Re: Border Security Canada: Saturdays on Global

Postby Protector24 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:06 pm

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Last edited by Protector24 on Sat May 25, 2013 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Border Security Canada: Saturdays on Global

Postby Bald Man » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:48 pm

Protector24 wrote:
Bald Man wrote:I have no doubt that he did, but reading something that is not applicable in canada and from another country is incorrect and just plain silly. Proper charter rights have to be read especially on TV. If he had time to read something from American tv, then he had time to properly arrest the female according to Canadian law. I've been in court numerous times when the judge and defense scrutinize an officers arrest and dissect every aspect of it, the court will have the officer read exactly what he read to the arrested person, it's typed out in the duty book so ever officer reads the same thing. One might argue that when the female was handcuffed it wasn't a proper arrest. That's all I'm saying. Other than that, interesting show that will give Canadians some insight and respect for our CBSA colleagues.


Are you saying that every time a PO arrests somebody they read them the proper arrest warning from their card/notebook/bottom of their shoe before cuffing? I doubt it. I would venture to say that many times a person is told that they are under arrest and maybe a reason is given and maybe not until some level of security or safety is established (ie. person being arrested secured/frisked/etc.)

At that point, the person is read all of their rights/warnings/etc. from whatever source whether that be there on the spot or whilst secured in the rear of a vehicle, etc.

At any rate, I'm sure the officer involved has heard all about it already. And I'm sure he wishes that one of the CBSA representatives involved in the editing of the show decided to edit that out of the sequence in favour of his reading verbatim from the card when the female got to cells.

It's not exactly comfortable having a camera man, sound guy, media relations team, show director and possibly your Chief/Director standing 20 feet away watching your every move. Shit happens...


I get what your saying, But that's not what anyone is trained to say, so why even go there? saying you're under arrest for blank and then reading the proper RTC cautions as soon as practical is acceptable, but be ready to testify to this court. the female wasn't acting up so he had time to read the proper RTC, cautions etc...especially since the camera was rolling and he was in a building. All I'm saying is because the camera was rolling one might want to try a little bit harder to be proper in their method. It just sounded really dumb to me, but majority of people watching would have no clue.

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Re: Border Security Canada: Saturdays on Global

Postby Protector24 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:04 pm

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Last edited by Protector24 on Sat May 25, 2013 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Border Security Canada: Saturdays on Global

Postby Shawshank » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:30 pm

Is it not possible that the on-site producer asked him to do it again using the Miranda rights, purely for the show and it is not how the officer would do things normally?
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Re: Border Security Canada: Saturdays on Global

Postby danoman » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:38 pm

Shawshank wrote:Is it not possible that the on-site producer asked him to do it again using the Miranda rights, purely for the show and it is not how the officer would do things normally?


I thought that it wasn't staged or scripted in any way shape or form :ponder: .
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Re: Border Security Canada: Saturdays on Global

Postby Protector24 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:16 pm

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Last edited by Protector24 on Sat May 25, 2013 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Border Security Canada: Saturdays on Global

Postby Shawshank » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:19 pm

Is one of the POE in the show your POE?
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Re: Border Security Canada: Saturdays on Global

Postby danoman » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:27 pm

Shawshank wrote:Is one of the POE in the show your POE?


I believe you can even see a picture of Protector in the opening montage of the show.
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