Freeman of the Land

General Law Enforcement discussion which does not fit into other channels. Post your thoughts and feelings about anything you want (LE related), or just vent those fumes about whatever is on your chest.
GoodWitness
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Re: Freeman of the Land

Postby GoodWitness » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:24 pm

Gard wrote:
Tango5 wrote:Canadian freeman gets pulled and does not consent Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz1tCYzvhSI


Both of the clips were posted on BL a while back.


That guy's voice makes me want to step on his throat.


Best quote from that guy:
At no point in time am I going to understand anything you say to me!

Tango5
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Re: Freeman of the Land

Postby Tango5 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:14 pm

Mirandarize me....

Stupid.
... For the Grammar Police, get off my back, I wasn't born here.

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Re: Freeman of the Land

Postby meathead1 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:18 pm

Shawshank wrote:Would it be fair to say the American movement is more intense than the Canadian movement?


Ya I think it is. The potential for violence (like in the US) is there with the Canadian off shoot of this, but we haven't seen it yet.

A lot of these fucking morons are buying in to this as a way to scam the system, not because they actually believe what they are spouting. They do it because they think it's a way to pull one over on "the man". We had a guy who resisted arrest violently when we arrested him for failing to id himself. He showed up in court, and had miraculously come around- he had registered his vehicle properly, had insurance, everything was lined up. He didn't really buy into what he was telling us he was just looking to fuck the system, which is what I've seen a lot of them doing.
When things get bad, I take comfort in knowing they could always be worse.
When things get worse, I take comfort in knowing they can only get better.

GoodWitness
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Re: Freeman of the Land

Postby GoodWitness » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:19 pm

Check out http://www.deathandtaxes.com a blog by JJ Macnab who has researched and written extensively about the Sovereign movement in the US. Very interesting info.

From that blog:
What is a Sovereign Citizen?
13 Feb

On February 6, the Federal Bureau of Investigation held a news conference about a growing problem faced by local law enforcement agencies. According to the FBI, police all around the country have been contacting the Bureau with requests for information and training on the sovereign citizen movement.

Over the next week, the online reaction to the Bureau’s statements ranged from confused to outraged. Conservative pundits were wringing their hands, fearing that the FBI is going to target their Tea Party readership as enemies of the state, while liberal pundits expressed glee that the FBI now considers Tea Party supporters to be domestic terrorists.

For example, conservative commentator Glenn Beck aired a 12-minute segment on his show last week in which he concluded that there is no such thing as a sovereign movement, since he’s never heard of it, and that the government is using this fictional group as a boogeyman in order to do nefarious things to Glenn Beck’s fans.

“I’m in the news business. I don’t even know who they are. Sovereign citizens?” — Glenn Beck

Alas, Mr. Beck, sovereign citizens do indeed exist. And sorry, both sides of the political battle field, they aren’t the Tea Party.

The good news for Beck is that the overlap between his fan base and the sovereign movement is probably minor. The bad news for the rest of us is that state and local law enforcement agencies are having a heck of time educating their officers about how best to identify and deal with this very real and potentially violent group.

So what’s the definition?

The short answer: a sovereign citizen is someone who believes that he or she is above all laws.


The long answer is a bit more complex.

Think about a law you don’t like. Any law, at any level of government. It can be a big law, like paying income taxes, or a tiny one, like licensing your pet Chihuahua with the county.

If you’re a member of the Tea Party movement, the solution to this bad law is to protest your opinion in DC and in other metropolitan areas, write angry letters to your Congressmen, and vote for politicians who agree with you that such a law should be scrapped as soon as possible.

If you’re a member of the sovereign citizen movement, your approach is a bit different. You start by looking for a combination of quotes, definitions, court cases, the Bible, Internet websites, and so on that justify how you can ignore the disliked law without any legal consequences. Be imaginative. Pull a line from the 1215 version of the Magna Carta, a definition from a 1913 legal dictionary, a quote from a founding father or two, and put it in the blender with some official-sounding Supreme Court case excerpts you found on like-minded websites. Better yet, find someone else online who disliked that same law and pay them $150 for a three-ring binder filled with their word salad research.

Et voilà, not only have you proven that you don’t have to obey the law you dislike, heck, it’s your patriotic duty to disobey it, and anyone who tells you otherwise is just plain un-American and is probably part of a world-wide Jewish conspiracy to ensure that Chihuahuas are slaves to the US government.

When you can pick and choose which laws to put through your special blender, you are effectively putting yourself above all laws.

So why are they a problem for state and local police?

Sovereign citizens are true believers. They generally entered the movement by buying into a scam or conspiracy theory that not only promised them a quick fix to their problems, but wrapped such solutions in a heavy layer of revolutionary rhetoric. Once a sovereign feels the flush of excitement and self-importance that comes from acting as the David to the U.S. government’s Goliath, they know, with all of their hearts and souls, that their research is correct, that their cause is just, and that anyone who disagrees with them is a criminal who deserves to be punished.

These sovereign citizens are also doomed to failure; the tax collector, prosecutor, and judge have all heard these same legal theories dozens of times already and understand that they are bogus.

When a person believes his cause is just, yet he meets failure over and over and over again, there comes a point where he has to make a decision: he can admit his theory is wrong and walk away, or he can fight dirty.

Non-violent retaliation against government employees and law enforcement is the most common response, and can take the form of filing false liens, filing bogus Forms 1099, sending threatening correspondence, suing government employees for millions of dollars, and cyber-stalking individuals in government who disagree with the sovereign’s legal theories.

Some sovereigns plot a violent revenge, hoping to inspire others in the movement to reach their breaking point sooner. For example, after twenty years of attempting to persuade the IRS and the Tax Court that his blender salad of legal theories was accurate, in 2010, private pilot Joseph Stack flew his airplane into an IRS building in [entity display="Austin" type="place" active="false" activated="true" deactivated="true" key="tx/austin"]Austin[/entity] Texas, killing one tax collector, and injuring thirteen others.

“I saw it written once that the definition of insanity is repeating the same process over and over and expecting the outcome to suddenly be different. I am finally ready to stop this insanity. Well, Mr. Big Brother IRS man, let’s try something different; take my pound of flesh and sleep well.” — Joseph Stack’s suicide note

Other such planned events have included bombings, shootings, murders, and armed standoffs.

Most sovereigns who act violently, however, have no grand plan in place; they simply lash out when they’ve failed one too many times. Some commit suicide, but for most of them, the final straw can be something as small as being pulled over by a highway patrolman for having a busted tail light or something as big as being evicted from their home when the bank forecloses on their property.

Since most people don’t have any direct contact with government other than with local law enforcement, officers are at a particularly high risk of bearing the brunt of sovereign citizen anger.

Why do officers need training?


On the surface, sovereigns believe some pretty outrageous things, and to an outsider, their legal theories seem fairly silly. Up until the recent wave of violence, most police officers who encountered sovereigns found them more amusing than anything else. Following recent police shootings in Arkansas, Florida, Texas, and Pennsylvania, officers now need to rethink their opinion of this group.

Also, sovereign citizens don’t call themselves that. In fact, if you ask a person if she is a member of the movement, she is likely to respond that the “sovereign citizen” label is an oxymoron, and that she is an individual seeking the Truth. She may then launch into a ten minute lecture about 18th century ideals of individual sovereignty. A non-sovereign simply answers, “No.”

Perhaps the most difficult hurdle for law enforcement is dealing with stereotypes. The first generation sovereign movement (from 1970 to 1995) was comprised mostly of middle-aged, high-school educated, white men with some military background, and hard-right, often racist values, located mostly in in rural communities west of the Mississippi. Today, the second sovereign wave (1999 to present) can include anybody: black, white, rural, urban, Asian, Hispanic, young, old, armed, unarmed, male, female, conservative, liberal, semi-literate, college-educated, from any walk of life. For example, dentists, chiropractors, and even police officers all seem drawn to the movement in recent years.

Sovereigns are also difficult to identity because there is no membership group for them to join, no charismatic leader, no organization name, no master list of adherents, and no consistency in the schemes they promote and buy into. There are hundreds of sovereign legal theories being peddled in seminars, in books, and on the Internet, and many of these theories contradict each other.

Conclusion

The sovereign citizen movement is big and is growing fast, thanks to the Internet. There are an estimated 300,000 people in the movement, and approximately one third of these are what I would call hard-core believers – people willing to act on their beliefs rather than simply walk away.

While there is no guarantee when it comes to officer safety, police departments do indeed need to teach their front-line officers how to identify sovereign markers and take appropriate precautions in case a particular encounter becomes a sovereign’s “final straw.”

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Re: Freeman of the Land

Postby alexander » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:20 pm

We're not in Kansas anymore Toto...

What Jurisdiction they stand in is seemingly what they are concerned about and legal joinder to the legal fiction created by the name on the Birth Certificate. (Which was used to get a DL)

They know the difference between Regulations vs. Common Law (God’s Law)

Backgrounder: Canada was created by a foreign power (The U.K.) in an act of Parliament

It was originally called the British North America Act http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1982/11/contents

(The Constitution Act, 1982, being Schedule B to the Canada Act 1982 (UK), 1982, c 11)

See: Constitution Act of 1867 Http://canlii.org/en/ca/const/const1867.html

It was later renamed the Constitution Act (1982) and the Charter of rights and freedoms was added:

http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/const/const1982.html

It is the Statute that allows for the creation of all other statutes and Regulations. (Legal, but not LAW) Read this statute carefully.

Especially Section 52 and 32. It is the main premise to their argument.

"Primacy of Constitution of Canada Section 52. (1) The Constitution of Canada is the supreme law of Canada, and any law that is inconsistent with the provisions of the Constitution is, to the extent of the inconsistency, of no force or effect."

Reads: This Act is the highest law in Canada-Gov't can make any regulation they want, even if it is unconstitutional, but if the law is inconsistent with the charter, it has no force or effect.


Section 32 sets out who it actually applies to: Government or its agents- You, if you work for the government.

"Application of Charter 32. (1)This Charter applies

(a) to the Parliament and government of Canada in respect of all matters within the authority of Parliament including all matters relating to the Yukon Territory and Northwest Territories; and
(b) to the legislature and government of each province in respect of all matters within the authority of the legislature of each province. "

Yes, some of these people are a little off, but some are good and smart people that know there is something wrong and have figured it out.

More important: Many know how to sue you individually in inherent jurisdiction. See Dean Clifford videos at http://www.time4thetruth.info/p/dean-clifford.html

It’s got me thinking...Are we enforcing LAWs or Regulations?

Hope this helps to clarify. You've got a lot of reading to do. When you figure it out, you'll probably want a Rolaid.
:shock:

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Re: Freeman of the Land

Postby Dudley DoRight » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:45 pm

Yes, some of these people are a little off, but some are good and smart people that know there is something wrong and have figured it out.""


Methinks newbie alexander sounds like he may hear black helicopters above him...or am I reading his post incorrectly? I have had dealings with them and know some of them personally thru work and none are "good and smart"...they are a bunch of violent Cop-haters who drone on about how they don't have to obey any laws because they choose to not obey them...and resist violently when you won't let them continue to do what they want. They are the ultimate example of our entitlement society where rules don't apply if you don't want them to. Watch your back and be ready for trouble.
Last edited by Dudley DoRight on Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Freeman of the Land

Postby alexander » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:50 pm

Dudley DoRight wrote:Yes, some of these people are a little off, but some are good and smart people that know there is something wrong and have figured it out.""


Methinks newbie alexander sounds like he may hear black helicopters above him...or am I reading his post incorrectly?



Not Funny Dudley... Methinks? Really?

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Re: Freeman of the Land

Postby Dudley DoRight » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:59 pm

Police down Island had a battle with one of them and I know the Members involved. Home made plates on his car, refused to identify, babbled about magna Carta crap, locked himself inside his car and refused to respond. Took 5 Cops to smash the car windows and drag him out as he violently resisted.

I know one personally here where I live, a wife-beater, drunk, history of violent encounters with Police. Others here in BC interior they stalked and harassed members when they haddealing with them. Have you actually had any contact with them personally or spoken to Members who have?

If that is your example of "good and smart people, then I don't want to live in your parallel universe. I'm happier and safer in my world.

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Re: Freeman of the Land

Postby Mongo » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:19 pm

-
Did YOU build the Estadio Olimpico?

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Re: Freeman of the Land

Postby meathead1 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:48 pm

Like I said, with the exception of that toolbox Menard, and maybe a few others, all of these losers are people who are trying to get away without paying taxes and other fees. That's it, that's all. If they were serious about it, they would go off the grid- get rid of cell phones, have nothing to do with "society", live off the land. NONE OF THEM DO THAT. They just want everything for free. Fucking scabs is all they are.
When things get bad, I take comfort in knowing they could always be worse.
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Re: Freeman of the Land

Postby Tango5 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:12 pm

It's probably a stupid question but on YouTube you can find clips of what appears to be their 'little' wins, either in court or road side.

Providing the clips are what actually happened, why do they 'win' if the Law is above them?
Is it the Member's or JP's lack of knowledge or experience that gets them off?
... For the Grammar Police, get off my back, I wasn't born here.

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Re: Freeman of the Land

Postby GoodWitness » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:51 pm

Tango5 wrote:It's probably a stupid question but on YouTube you can find clips of what appears to be their 'little' wins, either in court or road side.

Providing the clips are what actually happened, why do they 'win' if the Law is above them?
Is it the Member's or JP's lack of knowledge or experience that gets them off?


Their 'wins' are not really wins, they just delay the inevitable. They refuse to participate, and refuse to admit they are who they are, and think that means they've won.

It's delusional thinking. Occasionally, a creditor stops pursuing a debt, because it's more trouble than it's worth, and they interpret this as a "win".

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Re: Freeman of the Land

Postby The Watch » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:57 pm

alexander wrote:It’s got me thinking...Are we enforcing LAWs or Regulations?


Caps lock it all you want and it's still a synonym.
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Re: Freeman of the Land

Postby GoodWitness » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:27 pm

meathead1 wrote:Like I said, with the exception of that toolbox Menard, and maybe a few others, all of these losers are people who are trying to get away without paying taxes and other fees. That's it, that's all. If they were serious about it, they would go off the grid- get rid of cell phones, have nothing to do with "society", live off the land. NONE OF THEM DO THAT. They just want everything for free. Fucking scabs is all they are.


I think your interpretation is right, from our perspective they're trying to get something for nothing. But I really do believe that what most of them seem to have in common is a desperate need to feel superior in some way, to be part of an underground society that will let them escape the responsibilities and burdens of what the rest of us know is just normal life. So they latch onto this nonsense about admiralty versus common law, and legal language that they think has some bizarre significance to themselves as "persons" - "joinder" seems to come up a lot.

Knowing all these secret code words and pseudo-legal jibber-jabber puts them "in the know". Crap like the importance of different colours of ink on documents, or whether a surname is written in all caps, or hidden meanings behind the encoding numbers on the bottom of an invoice.

According to Macnab, most of them come to their beliefs out of desperation and failure - grabbing onto the faint hope that there is some secret info that will set them free from their troubles, usually financial.

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Re: Freeman of the Land

Postby Columbo » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:55 pm

meathead1 wrote:Like I said, with the exception of that toolbox Menard, and maybe a few others, all of these losers are people who are trying to get away without paying taxes and other fees. That's it, that's all. If they were serious about it, they would go off the grid- get rid of cell phones, have nothing to do with "society", live off the land. NONE OF THEM DO THAT. They just want everything for free. Fucking scabs is all they are.


That's because the Mennonites would hang them.
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