Armed Security Question (Armored Car)

General Law Enforcement discussion which does not fit into other channels. Post your thoughts and feelings about anything you want (LE related), or just vent those fumes about whatever is on your chest.
Whistler
Veteran Member
Posts: 226
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:13 pm
Contact:

Armed Security Question (Armored Car)

Postby Whistler » Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:47 am

Just out of curiousity can anyone expand on the rules for security guards that are armed with handguns (Brinks, G4, etc).

I know they are armed when transporting cash and driving armored cars, but what are the rules for those guards when they are doing other duties? I know some of the companies that do armored also do non-armored regular security stuff and I assumed that they would not be allowed to carry for that stuff.

I'm just curious because I saw a guy a few days ago in a Tim Hortons from one of those companies who was carrying a gun on his belt, but then went to leave and got in what looked like pretty much a regular marked security car which didn't seem like it was armored or used for any kind of cash transport. Just got me thinking about what the rules for them might be considering here in Canada a lot of LE don't even carry so I thought it would be pretty strict for a private security company.

I thought maybe it could be a supervisor or something that escorts the armored truck in a regular car? That was my best guess...

A.T.R.
King Poobah
Posts: 2277
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:20 am
Contact:

Re: Armed Security Question (Armored Car)

Postby A.T.R. » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:16 am

That guy may have just been running an errand from within the armored side of the company or he is wih the ATM side and does one man (unless you saw a partner inside) ATM servicing.

They may also do unarmored cash pick up and delivery of small quantities.

National Armored befoe they got robbed in the vault, and Pinkertons was notorius for this kind of work. Its cheaper than sending out a full armored vehicle.
If you do not have access to the private side please do not contact me. I do not give employment advice other than what is publicly posted.

User avatar
devilwoman
Lord of the Poobahs
Posts: 1060
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2003 10:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Armed Security Question (Armored Car)

Postby devilwoman » Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:01 pm

G4S drives white Escapes that, for all intents and purposes, look like regular patrol units. They are driven by armed guards in an all navy uniform. I see them all the time at the Tim's in the Hammer and I have seen them wander in and out with small cash bags (to confirm what ATR said).
"Don't let someone get comfortable disrespecting you."

User avatar
Tommy
Veteran Member
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:59 pm
Location: Parts Unknown
Contact:

Re: Armed Security Question (Armored Car)

Postby Tommy » Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:12 pm

I've also seen many of those types driving Ford Windstar Service vans to do ATM servicing as stated above.

Outside of a cash service role, I cant see them being armed on any kind of Static "Guard" type site outside of their own G4S offices etc..

Not sure what the legality of Armed Guards are on a private site here in Canada but I dont think it happens much...
"Courage is fear holding on a minute longer." - General George S. Patton

User avatar
Bald Man
Lord of the Poobahs
Posts: 1238
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 10:12 am

Re: Armed Security Question (Armored Car)

Postby Bald Man » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:06 pm

The CFO issues ATC for armored car guards. On these licences there is restricted stipulation that states a very speciic purpsoe for carrying a restricted firearm. When I was with Loomis back in the day, I think our permits read

guarding or transporting currency,precious metals and other moveable items of high value.

There are other stipulations the CFO makes such as,

-annual qualification to the same standards as a police course of fire.
-Uniforms
-holsters

Carrying your sidearm outside the intended purpose could result in a number of things including termination and or criminal charges. Things were pretty relaxed when I was there. We did things I'm sure would get most fired today. :lol: Towards the end of my time there, things were progressively changing and the rules were really tightening up. I remember hearing a crew from Montreal having problems from the police because they were eating in a food court. Obviously there are exceptions such as grabbing a quick bite,coffee, washroom breaks etc...but anything outside "reasonable" stops could cause serious problems for the employee. There are other obvious reasons for this. A guard being in public coud get caught up in a none work related violent incident. WIth the lack of training in laws and use of force, some guards did take it upon themselves to engage various threats such as robberies. This posses a significant risk to the guards and the public. The companies could also find themselves in major lawsuits.

I've been gone 10 years now, so there ae likely other changes. I know there is a move towards pistols.

ToyCopp
Regular Member
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:40 am
Contact:

Re: Armed Security Question (Armored Car)

Postby ToyCopp » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:24 pm

Whistler wrote:Just out of curiousity can anyone expand on the rules for security guards that are armed with handguns (Brinks, G4, etc).

I know they are armed when transporting cash and driving armored cars, but what are the rules for those guards when they are doing other duties? I know some of the companies that do armored also do non-armored regular security stuff and I assumed that they would not be allowed to carry for that stuff.

I'm just curious because I saw a guy a few days ago in a Tim Hortons from one of those companies who was carrying a gun on his belt, but then went to leave and got in what looked like pretty much a regular marked security car which didn't seem like it was armored or used for any kind of cash transport. Just got me thinking about what the rules for them might be considering here in Canada a lot of LE don't even carry so I thought it would be pretty strict for a private security company.

I thought maybe it could be a supervisor or something that escorts the armored truck in a regular car? That was my best guess...



First of all people that work for G4S, and Brinks are not security guards.
There are some small security guard companies that offer rinky dinky cash escorts for other services like TTC (TSM does this) and static sites where cash is being bundled for a deposit (Intelliguard at one time did this for Cineplex)

For the Armoured car employees they are constantly on the road or working in plant operations and for security purposes are armed. They often make coffee and food runs while armed because it is perfectly legal but some companies may have their own policies to take off the sidearm’s to do this. But I know the G4S and Brinks don’t.

Back in the old days it was required for the employees to carry .38's while on the road but inside (working in the branch as dispatch or vault staff) they could carry semi autos but would have to change up if they were to step outside. Now they don’t.

A.T.R. wrote:National Armored befoe they got robbed in the vault.


ahahaha yeah I remember that. The owners set it up.

User avatar
SierraSeven
King Poobah
Posts: 1687
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:48 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Armed Security Question (Armored Car)

Postby SierraSeven » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:37 pm

Bald Man wrote: I remember hearing a crew from Montreal having problems from the police because they were eating in a food court. Obviously there are exceptions such as grabbing a quick bite,coffee, washroom breaks etc...but anything outside "reasonable" stops could cause serious problems for the employee. There are other obvious reasons for this. A guard being in public coud get caught up in a none work related violent incident. WIth the lack of training in laws and use of force, some guards did take it upon themselves to engage various threats such as robberies. This posses a significant risk to the guards and the public. The companies could also find themselves in major lawsuits.

I remember seeing a G4S guy, in uniform and armed, at a law enforcement supply store in the east end of Ottawa. I was curious at the time as to what he was doing there with his pistol. Figured it was against policy/law but he wanted everyone there to know he carried. Didn't give it much thought after he left.
While you are reading this, your enemy is training.

User avatar
To a T
Grand Poobah
Posts: 739
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:19 am

Re: Armed Security Question (Armored Car)

Postby To a T » Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:17 pm

:crazy:
Last edited by To a T on Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Bitterman
Rookie Member
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:09 pm
Contact:

Re: Armed Security Question (Armored Car)

Postby Bitterman » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:27 am

I find all the hoopla 'round where/when some people think tHese armed guards should be permitted to carry their weapons... Hilarious

Really who does it affect and why should anyone care?
Admit nothing.
Deny everything.
Make counter accusations...

User avatar
RemingtonSteel
Veteran Member
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:33 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Armed Security Question (Armored Car)

Postby RemingtonSteel » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:13 am

I've seen the G4S guys a few times sitting down with their sidearms in coffee shops and fast food places and I could care less. They're just enjoying their meals before they continue on with their duties. It's not like they're walking around drawing their sidearms or anything.
If a man speaks his mind in the forest and a woman doesn't hear it, is he still wrong?

Whenever I feel sad, I just stop being sad and be awesome instead - true story

Whistler
Veteran Member
Posts: 226
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Armed Security Question (Armored Car)

Postby Whistler » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:37 am

Some of you guys need to relax and get off the defensive. I wasn't criticisizing the practice, I just observed it and got curious because I know how strict firearm restrictions are in this country and I never really thought about it before.

More curiousity than anything. I know that they probably arent transporting cash or valuables at all times, so I was wondering what the rules say for when they aren't. IE do they just keep it on for the shift, are they supposed to take it off, if so, where are they supposed to leave it, how practical is it, etc.

And To a T, if they aren't security guards, what are they? They aren't LEOs, they are private citizens tasked with securing/protecting property with a special consideration to carry weapons in specific circumstances. What words would you want us to use?

I know Subway likes to call their employees "Sandwich Artists" but they are still just guys who make sandwiches :D .

ToyCopp
Regular Member
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:40 am
Contact:

Re: Armed Security Question (Armored Car)

Postby ToyCopp » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:16 pm

Whistler wrote:And To a T, if they aren't security guards, what are they? They aren't LEOs, they are private citizens tasked with securing/protecting property with a special consideration to carry weapons in specific circumstances. What words would you want us to use?

I know Subway likes to call their employees "Sandwich Artists" but they are still just guys who make sandwiches :D .


The supervisor of the truck is called a messenger/custodian (British term)/ crew chief
The guard is a guard
The driver is a driver

They are no different then Purolator guys. As you mentioned, they are private citizens that are permitted to carry firearms for their safety in the course of handling cash or material equal to the value of cash.
While on duty and in uniform they are permitted to be armed no matter what their task may be as all employees in this nature of work are qualified and trained in the competency of firearm safety........or supposed to be.

Whistler
Veteran Member
Posts: 226
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Armed Security Question (Armored Car)

Postby Whistler » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:24 pm

Thanks for the answer. Sorry I mixed your user name up and replied to the wrong person.

I guess my thinking in lumping them in as security guards is that some of the companies do operate regular "security guard" duties, which I'm assuming are done by completely different staff, but to the observer its the same company/logo/uniform/vehicle markings. I know where I am, Garda is the most common company to employ contract mall security guards, but you also see huge red and black armored trucks which are also operated by Garda.

Also, you can walk into any office building and find a G4S guy sitting at the front desk doing security, but they also operate a ton of armored cars they have driving around doing valuable/cash transport.

I know Brinks from what I see would be specializing only in armored transport but the others seem to have regular security arms as well as the armored transport.

User avatar
Homer
Rookie Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:51 am
Location: Oshawa, Ontario
Contact:

Re: Armed Security Question (Armored Car)

Postby Homer » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:33 pm

Whistler wrote:And To a T, if they aren't security guards, what are they? They aren't LEOs, they are private citizens tasked with securing/protecting property with a special consideration to carry weapons in specific circumstances. What words would you want us to use?

I know Subway likes to call their employees "Sandwich Artists" but they are still just guys who make sandwiches :D .


According to the PSISA, armoured vehicle personnel are explicitly not "Security Guards":

Private Security and Investigative Services Act, 2005

Application
2. (1) This Act applies to private investigators within the meaning of subsection (2) and to security guards within the meaning of subsection (4).

Security guards
(4) A security guard is a person who performs work, for remuneration, that consists primarily of guarding or patrolling for the purpose of protecting persons or property.

Non-application
(7) This Act does not apply to,
. . .
(h) persons who receive remuneration for work that consists primarily of providing an armoured vehicle service;

There is separate legislation for these guys, but I just call them armoured car guards.
"They have the Internet on computers now!"

User avatar
newman
Rookie Member
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:26 pm
Location: Mean st.

Re: Armed Security Question (Armored Car)

Postby newman » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:44 pm

RemingtonSteel wrote:I've seen the G4S guys a few times sitting down with their sidearms in coffee shops and fast food places and I could care less. They're just enjoying their meals before they continue on with their duties. It's not like they're walking around drawing their sidearms or anything.

http://www.rd.com/living-healthy/24-things-you-might-be-saying-wrong/article184372.html
"The price of being a sheep is boredom. The price of being a wolf is loneliness. Choose one or the other with great care."


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest