How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

General Law Enforcement discussion which does not fit into other channels. Post your thoughts and feelings about anything you want (LE related), or just vent those fumes about whatever is on your chest.
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gotchya
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Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby gotchya » Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:02 am

TheWidowsSon wrote:Of course, if you think a doctor can in no way be as responsible as anyone in law enforcement (police,park wardens,BSO's , sheriffs, etc), then there's the rub.

Then I suppose that everyone should be allowed to perform surgery and prescribe drugs? :ponder:
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Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby TheWidowsSon » Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:05 am

gotchya wrote:
TheWidowsSon wrote:Of course, if you think a doctor can in no way be as responsible as anyone in law enforcement (police,park wardens,BSO's , sheriffs, etc), then there's the rub.

Then I suppose that everyone should be allowed to perform surgery and prescribe drugs? :ponder:

If they are trained, qualified and licensed to, YES! :ponder:
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gotchya
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Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby gotchya » Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:27 pm

TheWidowsSon wrote:
gotchya wrote:
TheWidowsSon wrote:Of course, if you think a doctor can in no way be as responsible as anyone in law enforcement (police,park wardens,BSO's , sheriffs, etc), then there's the rub.

Then I suppose that everyone should be allowed to perform surgery and prescribe drugs? :ponder:

If they are trained, qualified and licensed to, YES! :ponder:

So basically, are you suggesting that the average citizen can hold a licence if they pass a psychological test, go through a comprehensive background check/investigation, then attend a police college/approved use-of-force course, then can be given their right to carry concealed weapons. I'm OK with that.
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Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby TheWidowsSon » Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:34 pm

gotchya wrote:So basically, are you suggesting that the average citizen can hold a licence if they pass a psychological test, go through a comprehensive background check/investigation, then attend a police college/approved use-of-force course, then can be given their right to carry concealed weapons. I'm OK with that.

Right glad I am to see that we've found some common ground of understanding here.

I have a question for anyone out there in the know: Has there ever been a civilian firearms instructor employed at OPC or any other college instituted for the purpose of qualifying law enforcement personnel in the proper use of firearms?
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Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby gotchya » Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:39 pm

TheWidowsSon wrote:I have a question for anyone out there in the know: Has there ever been a civilian firearms instructor employed at OPC or any other college instituted for the purpose of qualifying law enforcement personnel in the proper use of firearms?

Qualifying someone to use a firearm and qualifying someone in Use-of-Force (which includes a firearm) is an entirely different issue.

I'm assuming you mean excluding those who were police/law enforcement.
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Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby TacticsPT » Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:09 pm

"So basically, are you suggesting that the average citizen can hold a licence if they pass a psychological test, go through a comprehensive background check/investigation, then attend a police college/approved use-of-force course, then can be given their right to carry concealed weapons. I'm OK with that"

Average citizens in the form of Brinks et al already hold a licence and an ATC and have passed a CFO approved course in use of force with a firearm and none of them have had to pass a psychological test.

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Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby TheWidowsSon » Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:11 pm

gotchya wrote:
TheWidowsSon wrote:I have a question for anyone out there in the know: Has there ever been a civilian firearms instructor employed at OPC or any other college instituted for the purpose of qualifying law enforcement personnel in the proper use of firearms?

Qualifying someone to use a firearm and qualifying someone in Use-of-Force (which includes a firearm) is an entirely different issue.

I'm assuming you mean excluding those who were police/law enforcement.

Agreed. But the Use of Force Continuum and the rules and regulations pertaining to use of force by law enforcement in the execution of their duties is over and above the laws governing a civilian's right to use reasonable force to halt an attack on their person.

Where I'm going with this is that if there were a civilian firearms instructor instructing police officers who could, under certain circumstances, carry off-duty, then certainly the teacher (instructor) is just as qualified to do so if not more -- especially (but not necessarily) if he is also an expert in the Use of Force part of the coarse.

That civilian carrying a concealed weapon doesn't mean he'll be doing the work of a police officer but he'd be well versed on his rights as a civilian to use force to defend his person.

In conclusion, it is possible for a civilian to be a responsible citizen with a CCW permit. If all training, certifications, background checks, psychological testing and whatever any other criteria necessary are met, he is not a threat to the public any more than an off duty police officer. To say he is is to say that hiring another 100 police officers is putting another 100 guns on the street to the detriment of the public's safety.
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Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby gotchya » Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:39 pm

TheWidowsSon wrote:In conclusion, it is possible for a civilian to be a responsible citizen with a CCW permit. If all training, certifications, background checks, psychological testing and whatever any other criteria necessary are met, he is not a threat to the public any more than an off duty police officer. To say he is is to say that hiring another 100 police officers is putting another 100 guns on the street to the detriment of the public's safety.

Sure, if a civilian is willing to go through the same rigors as a police officer (i.e. go through a background check and 6 months of training) than yes, he should be allowed to carry a concealed weapon, but until that happens; he shouldn't!
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Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby PPSC Lawyer » Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:42 pm

This thread has a tinge of the surreal.

I understand why certain posters would like to be able to carry a concealed firearm, and I understand why others (including myself) think it would be a bad idea. But it kind of misses the point - there is absolutely no support in Canada for concealed carry. No political party would dare suggest it. No interest groups are pushing for it. It's just a non-issue in this country.
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Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby TheWidowsSon » Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:01 pm

PPSC Lawyer wrote:This thread has a tinge of the surreal.

I understand why certain posters would like to be able to carry a concealed firearm, and I understand why others (including myself) think it would be a bad idea. But it kind of misses the point - there is absolutely no support in Canada for concealed carry. No political party would dare suggest it. No interest groups are pushing for it. It's just a non-issue in this country.

Ok, but as a lawyer surely you can see the entertainment value of a good argument, no?
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Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby Jace » Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:03 pm

There is also the issue of accidental shootings and suicides, both of which would likely increase if gun possession were more widespread and less restricted.

Someone in the house hears a noise, and shoots an individual delivering flyers at the front door.

A police officer pulls up to a call and finds someone on a front lawn gesturing wildly with a gun in their hand. Yes, they may be a "good guy" who has chased a burglar off their property, but now the officer has to deal with an armed civilian in an agitated state, and the mixup may end up in an unnecessary fatality.

As well, people may be trained and have taken safety courses, etc, but lose their cool during a petty dispute or disagreement, and pull out their gun. Or may harm themselves if they are in some kind of personal crisis. It happens.

For me, the way things are now are much better than the alternative.

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Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby Ottawan » Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:17 pm

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Last edited by Ottawan on Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby PPSC Lawyer » Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:37 pm

TheWidowsSon wrote:
PPSC Lawyer wrote:This thread has a tinge of the surreal.

I understand why certain posters would like to be able to carry a concealed firearm, and I understand why others (including myself) think it would be a bad idea. But it kind of misses the point - there is absolutely no support in Canada for concealed carry. No political party would dare suggest it. No interest groups are pushing for it. It's just a non-issue in this country.

Ok, but as a lawyer surely you can see the entertainment value of a good argument, no?


Sure do. Do you know where I can find a good argument? :D
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