How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

General Law Enforcement discussion which does not fit into other channels. Post your thoughts and feelings about anything you want (LE related), or just vent those fumes about whatever is on your chest.
User avatar
TheWidowsSon
Seasoned Member
Posts: 377
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:56 pm
Location: Ontario
Contact:

Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby TheWidowsSon » Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:56 pm

I'm sorry, where did I say that the Police are ineffectual?

I'm postulating the theory that the Police can continue to do the fine job they're doing but within an environment that minimizes the governments interference on law-abiding citizens.

Please don't try to twist my words to make this appear to be an anti-police discussion. I can respect the job the police do while disagreeing with some of our laws. It doesn't make a person anti-government either.
Proud to be a jail guard. Don't like it? Get over yourself .

User avatar
TheWidowsSon
Seasoned Member
Posts: 377
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:56 pm
Location: Ontario
Contact:

Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby TheWidowsSon » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:06 pm

Jim Street wrote:The flavour of the posts, not necessarily by Bitterman, but posts of this general nature, are very similar to anti-government wingnut militias from the States.

To simply say that the police can't be everywhere to protect me so I'll just carry a gun is a pretty flawed argument for the safety of yourself and the general public.

I can wholly understand why someone faced with the job you have to do would be of the that opinion. While my original thought on this was that it is more of a libertarian issue, I'm not convinced that the argument of personal safety is flawed. There are statistics, as pointed out by someone earlier, that would indicate the opposite.

Personally, until I started reading this thread, I never gave it much thought. Still, I like a good discussion from time to time to keep my brain active and my mind open. I use it so little at work. :D
Proud to be a jail guard. Don't like it? Get over yourself .

User avatar
MC07
Rookie Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 6:21 pm
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby MC07 » Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:41 pm

VanB wrote:I work in one what is statistically the most violent province or territory in the country. The mindset here is that it's nothing to exact complete violent retribution on someone for even the most remote and trivial perceived slights. A few months ago I had four guys jump one guy and pound the shit out of him with 2x4's and golf clubs. They insisted that they were innocent and it was self defense because a few months prior the guy had said something unkind to the guy's sister. Last week I had a 19 year old beat the hell out of a 14 year old because three months ago the 19 year old's girlfriend was making eyes at the 14 year old. Some of these people didn't have criminal records prior to these incidents, and had they applied for CCW they very well likely would have gotten it if it was legal in this country. Just because you may have a good head on your shoulders doesn't mean that there aren't a ton of people with a completely different frame of mind that would be just as likely to go out and find a way to get their hands on a legal CCW permit and end up chasing their neighbour down the street with a Glock 17 because his dog took a shit on their front yard two years ago. It may sound stupid to you, but there are cultures and experiences that go far beyond the Urban mentality that you think justifies the carrying of a handgun "just in case."


But people can already own guns legally, I don't see how not being able to lawfully pack a pistol on a persons belt would prevent that person form doing those things with their guns if they where determined to do so.

User avatar
three-six
Rookie Member
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:17 pm
Contact:

Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby three-six » Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:47 pm

MC07 wrote:
VanB wrote:I work in one what is statistically the most violent province or territory in the country. The mindset here is that it's nothing to exact complete violent retribution on someone for even the most remote and trivial perceived slights. A few months ago I had four guys jump one guy and pound the shit out of him with 2x4's and golf clubs. They insisted that they were innocent and it was self defense because a few months prior the guy had said something unkind to the guy's sister. Last week I had a 19 year old beat the hell out of a 14 year old because three months ago the 19 year old's girlfriend was making eyes at the 14 year old. Some of these people didn't have criminal records prior to these incidents, and had they applied for CCW they very well likely would have gotten it if it was legal in this country. Just because you may have a good head on your shoulders doesn't mean that there aren't a ton of people with a completely different frame of mind that would be just as likely to go out and find a way to get their hands on a legal CCW permit and end up chasing their neighbour down the street with a Glock 17 because his dog took a shit on their front yard two years ago. It may sound stupid to you, but there are cultures and experiences that go far beyond the Urban mentality that you think justifies the carrying of a handgun "just in case."


But people can already own guns legally, I don't see how not being able to lawfully pack a pistol on a persons belt would prevent that person form doing those things with their guns if they where determined to do so.


Really? You're contributing THAT?
--

User avatar
TheWidowsSon
Seasoned Member
Posts: 377
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:56 pm
Location: Ontario
Contact:

Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby TheWidowsSon » Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:16 am

VanB wrote: It may sound stupid to you, but there are cultures and experiences that go far beyond the Urban mentality that you think justifies the carrying of a handgun "just in case."

I'm not advocating the right to carry a weapon solely on the basis of personal protection (which in itself is understandable) but mostly on the basis of the freedom to choose whether to carry a weapon.

Your comment regarding cultures and experiences doesn't sound stupid to me at all. Believe me, I too have witnessed the cavalier attitude toward life that permeates certain segments of some cultures and of those with certain life experiences within those cultures.

However, many good people have been harvested from those same cultures and background experiences and given jobs as police officers, armored guards, corrections officers, military and other occupations that require them to carry a weapon on duty. Not everyone that grows up in a worn torn country ruled by drug lords or raised by irresponsible, criminal minded parents or even spend their youth in crime infested ghettos turn out bad.

The question becomes, if the same person has been deemed "not a threat" and can carry while on duty, why would they become a threat while off duty? And why would someone who may not wish to be in one of those occupations but goes through the same standards of checks and assessments be considered a threat just because their chosen profession is school teacher, truck driver or hairdresser? Why deny them the same freedom to carry a gun as the off duty police officer if all else is equal?

I have a couple of friends who are police officers and I feel no more threatened or endangered around them when they are armed whether they are on duty or off due to my trust in their character and training. Should I suddenly feel more threatened by them if those same officers decide to leave policing to become financial advisors?
Proud to be a jail guard. Don't like it? Get over yourself .

User avatar
TheWidowsSon
Seasoned Member
Posts: 377
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:56 pm
Location: Ontario
Contact:

Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby TheWidowsSon » Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:59 am

VanB wrote:Then the question for you would be at what cost do you feel this freedom to carry a weapon is worth, and to what end? I don't understand the logic you put forth that you don't base your support of CCW on a concept of personal protection but on the freedom to do it. For what means do you need the freedom to choose to carry a handgun beyond potentially using it defensively? Because the only alternatives are to use it offensively, or to carry it around to try to impress the ladies.

I'm defending the freedom for a responsible citizen to choose to carry a weapon for personal protection.

VanB wrote:Freedoms should be for things like speech or peaceable assembly. I think it's careless to equate freedom with someone's decision to use a certain type of technology, especially when the purpose of that technology is to kill other human beings.
Police and armored guards have the freedom to use a certain technology whose purpose is to kill (or protect) another human beings. Is that careless?

VanB wrote:You mention that you feel comfortable around the cops you know whether they are carrying on duty or off. Ask almost any cop who'd been on the job more than a few years. Most of them will tell you that there's no way they'd want to have to carry off duty, mainly because there are too many liabilities associated with carrying the thing around all the time.

The choice they make would be theirs to be respected and I'd probably agree. However, if there is a very real and serious threat of physical harm made against them or their family by an organized crime group, I think they'd be willing to take the risk of liability in that instance. For the record, many un-armed C.O.'s have had serious threats of violence made against them but, the law being what it is, doesn't afford them the same privilege.

If we can agree that two people can be equally morale in charactor, law-abiding and well trained in the safe use and storage of a firearm but one can be a police officer and the other a doctor then we may have some common ground here. And if you believe that police officers should not be allowed to carry while off duty then I can see where you're coming from.

However, if you believe that a police officer should be allowed to carry off duty if they feel it is prudent, then your logic becomes a little fuzzy to me. Unless, of course, you believe one person is less a threat strictly by nature of his occupation or that one occupation is superior to the other.
Proud to be a jail guard. Don't like it? Get over yourself .

User avatar
MC07
Rookie Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 6:21 pm
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby MC07 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:40 am

VanB wrote:
MC07 wrote:
But people can already own guns legally, I don't see how not being able to lawfully pack a pistol on a persons belt would prevent that person form doing those things with their guns if they where determined to do so.


Then you aren't thinking about it hard enough or rationally enough. While there is an excessive amount of gun crime here already, introducing even more guns makes even less sense, especially when the primary reason for having those particular guns is for using them on other people, even if in self defense. By and large those guns they already own are for hunting, yet the vast majority of them are improperly stored, and frequently misused. So now instead of having a moderate number of firearms in a small self contained community, firearms which are hard to conceal and generally more difficult to fire off in rapid succession in close quarters, you introduce easily concealed semi-automatic handguns to those same people in a manner that will permit them to carry surreptitiously 24 hours a day. So instead of getting mad and having to go home, get the gun, load it and then go finding the guy who pissed you off, during which time someone may talk some sense into you or you could cool down, these guys are a split second away from pulling a trigger.

Think long and hard about it and think if you'd want to live in a place like that. Then consider that there are tons of laces like that in pretty much every province and territory in this country.


I do live an a area where there are bullets flying, however 99% of the people doing the shooting are gangbangers who have already broken dozens of laws just getting their guns in the first place, I also know many people who have guns, they are hardly the shit rats that you seem to encounter at work.

I would not ever support american style gun carry laws, but I do not believe there would be a rash of shootings over two year old dog shitting incidents if carry permits could be issued to those who have gone through the assf**k that is the firearms act to get a restricted class license and own hand guns. It would not introduce more guns, people already have them and are responsible with them.

Even in the states where they have much less restrictive gun ownership laws, there where always claims that CCW would lead to a rash of shootouts over parking spaces, etc, but it never happened.

User avatar
bigbadjoe108
Sage Member
Posts: 426
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:07 pm
Contact:

Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby bigbadjoe108 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:36 am

I would like to forward something up... perhaps it is better to make another thread for it but here we go!

Screw CCW. I think that it is a pipe dream and with the current political climate it won't happen any time soon.

That said, what the heck is wrong with having a firearm and keeping it in the house/home for protection and using it if necessary? I used to live in an area where the average police response time was 60 minutes+ ( normally closer to 120 mins). Scumbags knew this as well. My situation was totally different at the time ( I was single with no kids) but if I lived there with a family? yeah, you can bet if I had someone breaking into the house while I was there I probably wouldn't be going for the frying pan....

Which is apparently not a good reason to have a firearm according to our laws.... Do I want to carry at the Wal Mart? Well after the 90th people of Wal Mart email I have received I am re-evaluating... but I would still say no.

Have one to literally defend the old home stead? I think this is reasonable.... And yes I do understand that there are risks involved... but with my background and experience I feel I can mitigate those. But removing a right to chose that as an option? I think that steps over the line...
VVV

User avatar
gotchya
Rookie Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:37 pm
Location: 10-20
Contact:

Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby gotchya » Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:49 am

TheWidowsSon wrote:However, if you believe that a police officer should be allowed to carry off duty if they feel it is prudent, then your logic becomes a little fuzzy to me. Unless, of course, you believe one person is less a threat strictly by nature of his occupation or that one occupation is superior to the other.


Um ya, I'd much rather someone who each goes through recertification yearly and is trained to deal with these situations than someone who decides they need to pack 'heat' for protection. I would allow anyone in law enforcement (police,park wardens,BSO's , sheriffs, etc) who is trained to carry a firearm should be allowed to carry while off duty.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."-Burke, Edmund
ImageImage

TacticsPT
Rookie Member
Posts: 0
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:22 pm
Contact:

Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby TacticsPT » Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:16 am

gotchya wrote:
TheWidowsSon wrote:However, if you believe that a police officer should be allowed to carry off duty if they feel it is prudent, then your logic becomes a little fuzzy to me. Unless, of course, you believe one person is less a threat strictly by nature of his occupation or that one occupation is superior to the other.


Um ya, I'd much rather someone who each goes through recertification yearly and is trained to deal with these situations than someone who decides they need to pack 'heat' for protection. I would allow anyone in law enforcement (police,park wardens,BSO's , sheriffs, etc) who is trained to carry a firearm should be allowed to carry while off duty.


Right 'cause throwing rounds down range at paper tagets once a year to get the requal is really training people to deal with these situations :roll:

User avatar
TheWidowsSon
Seasoned Member
Posts: 377
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:56 pm
Location: Ontario
Contact:

Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby TheWidowsSon » Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:55 am

TacticsPT wrote:
gotchya wrote:
TheWidowsSon wrote:However, if you believe that a police officer should be allowed to carry off duty if they feel it is prudent, then your logic becomes a little fuzzy to me. Unless, of course, you believe one person is less a threat strictly by nature of his occupation or that one occupation is superior to the other.


Um ya, I'd much rather someone who each goes through recertification yearly and is trained to deal with these situations than someone who decides they need to pack 'heat' for protection. I would allow anyone in law enforcement (police,park wardens,BSO's , sheriffs, etc) who is trained to carry a firearm should be allowed to carry while off duty.


Right 'cause throwing rounds down range at paper tagets once a year to get the requal is really training people to deal with these situations :roll:

If you read and understood my stated position on this you would have saved yourself the trouble of posting.

I'l restate it: My position is that if each person, the police officer and the doctor, are equally trained and qualified. The key phrase here is EQUALLY - in other words each receives the same training and has the same hoops to jump through to be qualified to the SAME degree. If that means re-certification yearly, so be it. The only difference now is their occupation.

Of course, if you think a doctor can in no way be as responsible as anyone in law enforcement (police,park wardens,BSO's , sheriffs, etc), then there's the rub.
Proud to be a jail guard. Don't like it? Get over yourself .

User avatar
gotchya
Rookie Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:37 pm
Location: 10-20
Contact:

Re: How arming citizens with guns might cut crime

Postby gotchya » Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:00 am

TacticsPT wrote:Right 'cause throwing rounds down range at paper tagets once a year to get the requal is really training people to deal with these situations :roll:

Its certainly more than John Doe who wants to carry and has not testing.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."-Burke, Edmund
ImageImage


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AhrefsBot and 2 guests