POLICE PURSUITS

General Law Enforcement discussion which does not fit into other channels. Post your thoughts and feelings about anything you want (LE related), or just vent those fumes about whatever is on your chest.
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russian
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POLICE PURSUITS

Postby russian » Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:38 pm

A Hamilton police officer called off his pursuit of a speeding car before it slammed into an east-end townhouse, killing the driver and a passenger early Saturday, according to his lawyer.

Dean Paquette, who is representing the officer being investigated by the Special Investigations Unit, said his client was on radar patrol clocking eastbound traffic on Main Street East near Gage Avenue South when he tried to stop a Mercedes driving 91 km/h.

When the driver did not stop, the officer turned on his sirens and began to chase the car south on Gage and then continuing east on Lawrence Road.

Paquette said the officer turned off his sirens after losing sight of the car's tail lights while going around a bend on Lawrence Road.

Moments later the officer heard a radio call about an accident up ahead at Lawrence and Cochrane Road which he drove past soon after. Paquette added the officer's cruiser never closed in on the accelerating Mercedes and that the gap between the two widened throughout the pursuit.

"The officer was acting within the rules he's advised to follow and did his duty appropriately," said his lawyer.

Paquette said accident reconstruction investigators estimated the Mercedes was travelling about 180 km/h before it flew off the curb, smashing into a tree and then roof-first into the townhouse.


Just can't help it, gotta make this comment. What needs to happen in order to change this policy. When and who is gonna change this idiotic law, where police officers are held liable for the actions of "others". I just can't wrap my head around this. "You" are making the choice to flee from police! Then "You" are responsible for your actions! If "You" decide to flee, onus is on you now and all that responsibility for everything that happen from the very moment is yours. "You" should loose your savings, house and everything, so your lawyer can be paid. How in the world is police officer held liable, sued, investigated for some idiot. "You" flee, that's automatically a criminal offense and you should go to jail for that. It is "you" who is putting everybody else (public, officer) in danger by your actions. Don't blame anybody else but "yourself".
Doesn't make a sense whatsoever. Yeah, prevent and detect the crime, relentless pursuit of criminals. Bunch of BS. I don't care if it is HTA violation. How do I know what have you done, when you flee. All I know that "you" are running for a reason. Maybe you killed somebody, or you are going to, or you committed a robbery or...God! What kind of message is sent out? Man, I'm so sick and tired of this...Wtf
I think that courts should also issue and advocate the Canadian Chart of Responsibilities.... I need a break now... :((
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Punisher-One
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Re: POLICE PURSUITS

Postby Punisher-One » Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:09 pm

People are always looking for someone to blame. Its easy to blame the Police and it gets headlines. People don't want to take responsability for thier stupid decisions. They prefer to blame someone else rather than admit they made the choice to act how they did. It sounds like the officer followed procedure so he should be alright.

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Re: POLICE PURSUITS

Postby Bald Man » Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:42 pm

Police have always been and always will be damned if they do and damned if they don't period. If someone gets away during a police pursuit and said person ends up killing or murdering someone, people would blame the police for failing to catch the person and preventing the crime. Unlike Firefighters, police are not generaly liked by society becasue they only harass people,give out tickets and arrest people for no reason. :roll: The minute someone is victimized in anyway, who's the first person they call for help? A firefighter? ;) As much as it boils your blood, it really is best to ignore negative comments in the news towards our serving police officers. An itelligent person is aware of the garbage news papers sell...."sell" being the key word.

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Re: POLICE PURSUITS

Postby Boxer Dogs » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:46 am

Bald Man wrote:Police have always been and always will be damned if they do and damned if they don't period. If someone gets away during a police pursuit and said person ends up killing or murdering someone, people would blame the police for failing to catch the person and preventing the crime. Unlike Firefighters, police are not generaly liked by society becasue they only harass people,give out tickets and arrest people for no reason. :roll: The minute someone is victimized in anyway, who's the first person they call for help? A firefighter? ;) As much as it boils your blood, it really is best to ignore negative comments in the news towards our serving police officers. An itelligent person is aware of the garbage news papers sell...."sell" being the key word.


Yup. The more crap they put in the papers, the more they sell. Just like Bald Man said "Sell" is the key word.
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Re: POLICE PURSUITS

Postby Mark S » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:09 am

Is anyone aware of police being held accountable for any type of loss of the driver himself?

The issue is third-party individuals. As much as its the fault of the driver of the fleeing vehicle, that probably wouldn't be much consolation to you if your loved one was killed in a pursuit-related accident that could have been prevented had the police backed off. Its our responsibility to act in the best interests of the public and to not add fuel to any fires that would put the public in danger. Of course its also our responsibility to enforce the law and apprehend offenders. Its a balancing act, and I don't agree with some of the scenarios where police were found at fault, particularly those involving very short chases, i.e. 30 seconds / two blocks. Its not reasonable to say that the police contributed to such an event in such a short time and that it was enough time to be able to properly contemplate the merit of the chase against the dangers.
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Re: POLICE PURSUITS

Postby Dave Jenkins » Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:45 am

This is the remains of the vehicle in the above article. The officer had quit his pursuit and still this guy drove the way he did. Was not at all surprising to learn the driver has previous issues with the law.
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Re: POLICE PURSUITS

Postby Ricardo Tubbs » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:02 pm

The issue is third-party individuals. As much as its the fault of the driver of the fleeing vehicle, that probably wouldn't be much consolation to you if your loved one was killed in a pursuit-related accident that could have been prevented had the police backed off.


it should never be perceived as the Police's responsibility to back off. It is the offender's responsibility to back off.
It is the offender that is compromising public safety by fleeing.

If one of my loved ones was killed in this type of circumstance (God forbid), I sure as hell would not be blaming the Police.

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Re: POLICE PURSUITS

Postby Apollo » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:18 pm

:aye:

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Re: POLICE PURSUITS

Postby NinjaNikki » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:29 pm

Ricardo Tubbs wrote:
The issue is third-party individuals. As much as its the fault of the driver of the fleeing vehicle, that probably wouldn't be much consolation to you if your loved one was killed in a pursuit-related accident that could have been prevented had the police backed off.


it should never be perceived as the Police's responsibility to back off. It is the offender's responsibility to back off.
It is the offender that is compromising public safety by fleeing.

If one of my loved ones was killed in this type of circumstance (God forbid), I sure as hell would not be blaming the Police.



+++1 What I think happens is often the Police have bigger pockets than the offender $$$$ and hence it's easier to blame the police.
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Re: POLICE PURSUITS

Postby Dave Jenkins » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:37 pm

Ricardo Tubbs wrote:
The issue is third-party individuals. As much as its the fault of the driver of the fleeing vehicle, that probably wouldn't be much consolation to you if your loved one was killed in a pursuit-related accident that could have been prevented had the police backed off.


it should never be perceived as the Police's responsibility to back off. It is the offender's responsibility to back off.
It is the offender that is compromising public safety by fleeing.

If one of my loved ones was killed in this type of circumstance (God forbid), I sure as hell would not be blaming the Police.


The police are the Good Guys after all, and it ultimately rests with them to see that the public as a whole are kept safe. If ending a pursuit would keep the public safer and not lead to (obvious) more unsafe conditions were they not to continue then ending the pursuit is the was to go if safety is an issue.

I am not saying there should be no pursuits but unless you are out in the boonies then police can make use of their numbers and in many cases set up an intercept further down the road.

Unfortunately there Tubbs the offender is just that, an offender, and they are not going to simply back off. I fully agree that there should be even more that could be thrown at the shit rats for bringing a pursuit into play.
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Re: POLICE PURSUITS

Postby russian » Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:03 pm

Here is an idea... Why don't we sue the fire department for excessive water use. Or sue them for the inability to save my basement!! 88)
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Re: POLICE PURSUITS

Postby Mark S » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:39 pm

While I understand where you guys are coming from, and largely agree with you, I'm surprised that you don't understand that the police have to consider the interests of the public at large. Its the same idea that even though s. 25 of the CC allows you to shoot at a fleeing offender in extreme circumstances, you wouldn't do it in a crowd. Its not worth putting innocent lives at risk. Now there's certainly a lot to be said for the fact that many of these people were driving in a dangerous manner before and after the pursuit, and you have to wonder if calling it off had any effect. I also think judges are too quick to assume that a crash occurred because the police were there.
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Re: POLICE PURSUITS

Postby russian » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:47 pm

Mark S wrote:While I understand where you guys are coming from, and largely agree with you, I'm surprised that you don't understand that the police have to consider the interests of the public at large. Its the same idea that even though s. 25 of the CC allows you to shoot at a fleeing offender in extreme circumstances, you wouldn't do it in a crowd. Its not worth putting innocent lives at risk. Now there's certainly a lot to be said for the fact that many of these people were driving in a dangerous manner before and after the pursuit, and you have to wonder if calling it off had any effect. I also think judges are too quick to assume that a crash occurred because the police were there.


not a good example here. for sure i wouldn't shoot into the crowd...but you can bet on it that i would never call it off!! all what i'm asking for here, is to put the responsibility where it belongs - on offender. no but's, if's or any other excuse....and the last thing i wanna do, is to adapt the "fido" syndrome while on patrol....what do you want me to do - to sit around and respond from the station only !? - like fire ( sorry just a figure speech)? :wave:
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Re: POLICE PURSUITS

Postby Jim Street » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:16 pm

Unfortunately though Russian, what I think Mark is saying is that we are still held to a higher accountability in these situations......as much as I would like to say I would never call off a pursuit because I feel that I just can't let him (the bad guy) get away....that would never stand up as an argument when an innocent victim gets killed by the alleged offender, or for that matter, the offender while fleeing crashes and kills himself. (I would still be partially to blame especially if for example the offender was an underage car thief)

The decisions have already handed out by judges and that is police will be held accountable in these situations....and it will not go the other way any time soon. Obviously I don't agree that police should be blamed but that is the reality of our laws here.

To say one would never call off a pursuit is just asking for trouble.....it could be construed as reckless and dangerous.
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Re: POLICE PURSUITS

Postby Z# » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:30 pm

:aye:
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