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General Law Enforcement discussion which does not fit into other channels. Post your thoughts and feelings about anything you want (LE related), or just vent those fumes about whatever is on your chest.
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Dave Jenkins
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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Dave Jenkins » Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:35 pm

There is one part-time concept that had been kicked about some time back and that was making use of recently retired police on a part time basis. They are already covered by benefits and they are already fully trained. This could become a viable solution to keeping some costs down. Ideally, there should be no part time staff (as police officers), but in reality it may become an evil necessity.
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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Bald Man » Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:14 pm

I thought I heard OPP use retired PO's on part-time basis in certain locations?

I know of an officer with us who came from a small town force (17 years) quit to teach college. Then he decided to get back in the game after a few years out and was hired on by the OPP on a summer contract. When OCRP took over the OPP areas, they offered him a job and he took it. This is all within the last 8 years. He told me it was as simple as here's a gun and badge if you want it.

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby NorthernBorder » Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:41 pm

Billygoat wrote:The part time & reserve officer idea is a bad one. It will be latched on to by city managers as a way of obtaining free or cheap policing. You'll have inexperienced people who want to 'dabble' in police work as a way of avoiding having to hire full time officers that you'd have to pay a salary and benefits to.

It'll never fly here in Canada.


Sort of like the grand old tradition of hiring summer students with a week of training to replace BSOs?

I don't want to highjack the thread, but we've heard nothing about how students are going to be phased out now that BSOs are being armed.
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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Punisher-One » Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:41 pm

Part time Police wouldn't work and neither would using Auxiliary's.
I am an Auxiliary, and my "job" is to assist regular members and to do things regular members don't need to do (community events and traffic at parades ect) so the regular members can be on the road. If there is a legitimate EMERGENCY situations then and only then should I or any Auxiliary be used as a Police Officer.
I am enjoying being an Auxiliary very much...I still hope they are hiring PC's when I drop my application in a year or so.
To say that Police are OVERPAID is absurd. The things PC's deal with on a regular basis...the arseholes, violence, odd hours, danger to one's self...$70k a year is hardly enough. I know none of us do this (or want to do this) for the money..but PC's have mortgages, car payments, kids, ect too. Cutting thier pay or thier numbers because Mayor Miller would rather pay for some dipshit CRACKHEADS free needles is asinine and shows where the priorities of his administration is...it aint in protecting the public and promoting law enforcement...thats for sure.

Edited, thanks Billygoat ;)
Last edited by Punisher-One on Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Billygoat » Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:14 am

Vince wrote: To say that Police are UNDERPAID is absurd.


I believe, given the rest of your text, that you meant to state "To say that Police are OVERPAID is absurd."
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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Gamble » Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:12 am

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Last edited by Gamble on Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Punisher-One » Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:32 am

Billygoat wrote:
Vince wrote: To say that Police are UNDERPAID is absurd.


I believe, given the rest of your text, that you meant to state "To say that Police are OVERPAID is absurd."


Haha yeah...thats the one...it was late. :oops:
Police definatly are NOT overpaid. I meant to say for the dangers they face day to day and the shit they see they are underpaid. Everyone cries out when that stupid "over $100,000" report comes out for the City of Toronto and Police are on it. Whatever, they deserve to make $100,000/year. I could think of people providing less of a service to the community making more than that.
The fact that you (not Billygoat) say Police/Fire/EMS should be one of the city departments to take a 15% pay cut is absurd. The City if going bankrupt because Miller is running the city into the ground.

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Dave Jenkins » Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:56 am

With the economic climate we presently have it would be very difficult to increase police pay substantially. What they are presently getting, in my view, is that not bad. Cutting any of that would be bad, and I think they deserve every penny of what they are getting. With out slamming other groups, I find myself hard pressed to understand why other’s in the employ of a City get paid what they do.

A couple of years ago McMaster University finally came to the realization that they could no longer sustain paying their food service employees and their custodians high (for those respective jobs) wages ($14/hr for a bus/person, $18/hr, full benefits for a custodian) and thus revamped (grandfather present staff at that time) the wage structure to $12/hr with no benefits. I truly am not slamming other work groups but I agree with what the university did because they did it to become more cost responsible. Further, they looked at other groups and reviewed them. Our special constable service for instance was left alone (presently looking at a -substantial- adjustment in officer wages due to the work done and qualifications required). City governments need to do the same.

City governments should be looking long and hard at what they pay other people within their employ and make adjustments there before they piss around with the public’s safety and security. It is a very unpleasant task to rip up and rebuild the structure of City Works or other City departments but in the long run it may be something that has to be done. Again, without meaning to put other down, how can a City government justify messing with police budgets when they piss away money in other areas, and that includes wages.
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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby PC Hopeful » Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:33 am

I actually didn't single out police in my post. I actually said all public employee's. This includes everyone on the city payroll which compared to the private sector are 30-40% higher. For instance if you look at some of their current job opportunities.

Receptionist, duties to answer phones and take messages etc has a starting salary of $27.18-29.78 (Private $14-18)

Or Purchase buyer, responsible for purchasing materials for government operation (machines/supplies etc) starting salary of $30,24-33.18 (Private $16-20)

Light cleaner, repsonsible for doing light cleaning duties in government offices. Starting salary $18.25-20.75 (Private sector $8-10/hr

But since this is a police forum

In regards to police salary. Take the LAPD for instance, these officers police a population of over 23 million, about 10 times the population of Toronto and they make about $26/hr and living costs in LA are a lot higher then Toronto.

Dallas PD, arguably one of the toughest cities to work (think they are top 3 in Gang activity) starts officers at $20/hr.

Now compare it to New York police. They start at $15.50/hr and top out at $30 and once again this is a larger population in NY then Toronto almost 3-1 and living costs there are also higher then TO.

Despite these lower wages neither department has staff shortages and their recruiting is more stingent then Canadian Police Services. Most require the applicant to be at least 21 years of age, possess a university (4 year degree), pass a lie detector test where they check your answers to the background questionaire you filled out and you HAVE to live within the city. I think only Edmonton actually gives their applicants a lie detector test. When that York officer was buried thousands of officesr from the US came up to honor him, so they do the same job as ours do and for considerably less and I don't think anyone would say that these US officers are any less competent then Canadian ones, in fact look around and ask yourself if you would do the job for $15 an hour, or if you have a 4 year degree from a university or if you could have passed a lie detector test when you were getting hired.

When compared to other cities and private sector it seems the city of Toronto (like other Canadian cities) is overpaying by about 40%. But this is a problem with all governments who negotiate with unions (not against unions) but the government negotiators don't seem to negotiate that hard. It seems people think if you work for the government there is a limitless barrel of money, even those elected seem to think the same.
Last edited by PC Hopeful on Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Billygoat » Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:40 am

Yeah, damn unions, getting their members higher salaries than non-unionized workers!

Of course, the fact is that collective agreements are usually agreed upon by both sides. Management doesn't agree to what it can't afford. Municipalities can very well aford to pay their employees current salaries, which were agreed upon by them in the first place.

It's the same hype & hysteria at every city budget time. It's David Miller trying to get more money (probably rightly so, actually) from the province - following the downloading initiated by Mike Harris in the 90's.
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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby dusty » Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:14 pm

PC Hopeful,

This is from the LAPD recruiting site:

The starting base salary for high school graduates is $54,475. If you have at least 60 college units, with an overall GPA of 2.0 or better, you will start at $56,668. (These salaries are as of July, 2006) If you have a BA or BS (four year) degree you will start at $58,881. You begin earning your full salary on your first day of Academy training.


Considering Toronto's base salary for a new PC (after completing about 6 months of training at 45k) is just over 50k, I think you're facts are a little off. You can clearly get hired by LAPD with a high school diploma, and you don't get hit with a $7,500 bill for your training. Also, I don't believe its any easier to get on in Toronto than it is anywhere else.

You can compare Toronto Police with big city American services all you like, but its pointless because in the U.S. police pay is all across the board, ranging from low 40's to high 70's. The pay for coppers in Toronto is matches up with police pay across Canada, which for the most part is pretty uniform.

You're dreaming if you think I'd do the job I do for security guard wages (15/hr). If you get hired someday you'll understand why (accountability, risk, workload, to name a few). Once you get a little older, and maybe experience police work, you'll realize that the idealistic approach of doing the job just for the love, regardless of pay, is not reality. It's easy to think that way when you're single in your 20's, but its a whole different ballgame when you have a family, and you don't see them as much as mon-fri workers due to shift work. It may be that certain city employees make more than their private sector countreparts, however, I think you're way offside suggesting police in Toronto are overpaid, or that police pay reductions are a good way for the city to save money. You might have good intentions, but you clearly have a lot to learn about the job you hope to do someday. I'd strongly suggest going out on a few ridealongs.
I personally did it for the money and the glory... my disappointment was tempered by the fact that I got a gun and a fast car-VanB

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby 48highlander » Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:25 pm

What amount do you all think that police officers should be paid since its a general agreement that they are underpaid. I am curious to know which profession would think that they are being overpaid for what they are responsible for on the job? Keep in mind police officers are not the only people who want to start a family, afford a mortgage, etc.


You don't have to look hard in the city of Toronto, start with all the Managers/Directors/Senior whatevers making over $100K, of such programs like needle exchange, support and outreach etc. Never mind that the city is blowing larges wads of cash on these ridiculus enabling programs (needle exchange, safe crack kits, make your own wine) the fact they have SEVERAL people topping $100k to run these programs is even more wasteful and ridiculus. Or By-law officers who make $30hr to START, Seasonal Summer employees for Parks and Rec making 17-19/hr (or more). I don't like to begrudge people an good pay, but when I see groups of city employees (lots of people at the Zoo, come to mind) moan and whine they aren't paid enough, for the job they do, I get sick to my stomach thinking of the hundreds (possibly thousands) of workers in the private sector (my own parents come to mind), working similar if not the exact same jobs, without the job security, benefits, and wages.

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Postby Gamble » Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:33 pm

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Last edited by Gamble on Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby SPC » Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:34 pm

dusty wrote:because in the U.S. police pay is all across the board, ranging from low 40's to high 70's.


From Policepay.net...this is the 1st year base pay.

High: Vallejo CA - $76,768 (about $37/hr based on 40 hour work week)

Low: Paterson NJ - $22,025 (about $10.60/hr based on 40 hour work week)

And everywhere in between!!!
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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby bigshotceo » Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:17 pm

SPC wrote:
dusty wrote:because in the U.S. police pay is all across the board, ranging from low 40's to high 70's.


From Policepay.net...this is the 1st year base pay.

High: Vallejo CA - $76,768 (about $37/hr based on 40 hour work week)

Low: Paterson NJ - $22,025 (about $10.60/hr based on 40 hour work week)

And everywhere in between!!!


Keep in mind that's only the first year's pay, when their officers would be equivalent to Canada's 4th or 3rd class constables. My guess (at least in the case of Patterson) most of their officers aren't making $10.60 an hour after three or four years.


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