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General Law Enforcement discussion which does not fit into other channels. Post your thoughts and feelings about anything you want (LE related), or just vent those fumes about whatever is on your chest.
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Bald Man
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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Bald Man » Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:04 am

bigshotceo wrote:I have no doubt that the "best" solution would be to have a police force fully made up of full-time members. Unfortunately, we need to accept the reality that there isn't always enough money for the best solution. Look at the medical field, for example. When you call an ambulance, you don't get a doctor arriving at your house, you get a paramedic. Sure, it would probably be better if we had a doctor arrive, and I'm sure that along the way someone got hurt because of it. When you go to a hospital, the first person you talk to it probably going to be a nurse, who would assess you. Again, it would be better if it were a doctor doing it, but it's not always financially available.

I know it's a bad idea how try and balance cost and safety/effectiveness but it's a fact of life anywhere you go.

And if it's such a "bad" or "stupid" idea, as some have suggested, why is it being implemented with relative success in two leading nations (the US and the UK)?


I wouldn't exactly call the US or the UK leading nations in policing. The UK deosn't even arm it's front line officers and many US states/ cities/towns/counties pay their police very low wages. In many cases they don't have the same level of training as our officers. So I would say Canada is a leading nation with respect to policing. Sure we can learn ideas from other nations, but I wouldn't model our policing after there's. Let's keep it Canadian!!

As for the health care profession. Paramedics are highly trained and experienced people. This is not a job that needs to be performed by Dr's. A paramedic's job is to stabilize people and transport to hospitals. Clearly these men and women do an effective job.

Nursing staff at hospitals are also highly trained and experienced people that perform a function that is not required to be performed by dr's or it would be.

It's apples and oranges. Policing is what it is and I don't think we can compromise this in any way.

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Z# » Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:05 am

Amen Bald Man.
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Bald Man
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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Bald Man » Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:24 pm

He's an exellent reminder of my volunteer auxially officers hould not be doing the job of fulltime paid armed police officers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PFIRCUhtu0

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/id/1722591753

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby bigshotceo » Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:46 pm

Bald Man wrote:He's an exellent reminder of my volunteer auxially officers hould not be doing the job of fulltime paid armed police officers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PFIRCUhtu0

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/id/1722591753


We're not talking here about the use of auxiliary police (ie individuals who are don't receive full police training and aren't equipped as police are), we're talking about fully trained and equipped part-timers/volunteers.

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Bald Man » Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:20 pm

bigshotceo wrote:
Bald Man wrote:He's an exellent reminder of my volunteer auxially officers hould not be doing the job of fulltime paid armed police officers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PFIRCUhtu0

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/id/1722591753


We're not talking here about the use of auxiliary police (ie individuals who are don't receive full police training and aren't equipped as police are), we're talking about fully trained and equipped part-timers/volunteers.


If we're not talking about auxillary what do you think a volunteer is? Part-time or volunteer auxillary, both would be a big mistake. That's just my opinion.

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby PC Hopeful » Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:02 am

Well in society where moeny is not infinite one must look to all areas for cutbacks. One thing I heard from a number of news services that something like 93% of the hundreds of millions of dollars Toronto spends on policing goes to payroll. A number of independant studies showed that TO citizens are not getting their moneys worth when it comes to public servants (police included)

Perhaps the City of Toronto should put a payroll roll back of 15% to all employees rather then raise the taxes of the citizens by 15% to pay for these high payrolls.

Don't get me wrong I am not against people earning a fair wage but I really do think public servants in Canada are overpaid when you really look at their contracts/wages/benefits.

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby dusty » Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:24 am

Well in society where moeny is not infinite one must look to all areas for cutbacks. One thing I heard from a number of news services that something like 93% of the hundreds of millions of dollars Toronto spends on policing goes to payroll. A number of independant studies showed that TO citizens are not getting their moneys worth when it comes to public servants (police included)

Perhaps the City of Toronto should put a payroll roll back of 15% to all employees rather then raise the taxes of the citizens by 15% to pay for these high payrolls.

Don't get me wrong I am not against people earning a fair wage but I really do think public servants in Canada are overpaid when you really look at their contracts/wages/benefits.



Try working a shift in Toronto as a PC and see if you still feel that police here are overpaid. I'd love to see how these "independant surveys" measure how citizens get their "money's worth" from police. They must not take into account the amount of calls that are cleared.

I think its bs to suggest 15% payroll roll backs when you consider the cost of living in Toronto, not to mention the amount of calls police here deal with. I could work in a smaller city or rural area, with fewer calls, less stress, cheaper housing, and still earn the same amount of money (with the exception of paid duties and overtime). To suggest police, and other public servants in Toronto, reduce their salaries to lower levels than their counterparts in areas with lower costs of living is ridiculous.

Fortunately your proposed "payroll roll back" is something that will never happen, because if it did there would be nobody left to police the city after all the police left to higher paying services in areas with lower costs of living. Then the morons doing their surveys could really see whether or not citizens in Toronto really get their "money's worth" out of their police.

Also, maybe in years past payroll took up 93% of the police budget, but one of the largest expenses of the police service nowadays is IT service, which attempts (key word attempts) to keep us up to date technology wise. Plus, as others have already stated, if there were more officers hired, there would be much less money spent on overtime, and more officers on the road.
I personally did it for the money and the glory... my disappointment was tempered by the fact that I got a gun and a fast car-VanB

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby PC Hopeful » Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:35 am

I totally respect your opinon. I don't know if you are a PC or not or if you are whether you work in Toronto or have ever worked a shift there. All I know is that money is a finite object. You are right that I am not now a PC nor have I worked a shift in TO. But, I was a volunteer soldier who served a tour in Afghanistan for 1 year. I made about 45k that year and had to deal with IED, ambushes, friendly fire, accidents, civillian deaths. I didn't do it for the money but because I believed in the job and to be honest I would have done it for food money because I believe what JFK said. "A young man who does not have what it takes to perform military service is not likely to have what it takes to make a living"

And you are right this has absolutely nothing to do with you or policing. But it has everything to do with my mindset and experience. For $45k many young men and women went to war, and some died. If soldiers can volunteer and fight a war for $45k, then I am sure public servants who aren't fighting a war can do with equal pay or less.

Just my .02 cents

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby HwyBear » Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:08 am

There is no Fair way to anaylyze salaries......but police certainly are underpaid compared to other professions that DO NOT:
- have danger
- work past 5pm
- work weekends
- work holidays
etc....

For many, when is the last time you went to an NHL, NBA, MLB, CFL, NFL, concert, etc.....and spent $75 plus on the event? to watch multi-millionaires do what? Get richer?

Sundin = 6.3million over 84 games / 84hrs of work, but actually only plays 20min a game, so even say 1/2hr per game = $75,000 for every 30 minutes....talk about nice salary
Few people understand the psychology of dealing with a highway traffic cop. Your normal speeder will panic and immediately pull over to the side. This is wrong. It arouses contempt in the cop-heart. Make the bastard chase you. He will follow"

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby dusty » Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:15 am

I respect the point you're making, and I really admire the fact that you did a tour there. I have a lot of friends over in afghanistan right now, and more on their way. I'm may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure you're speaking from the viewpoint as someone who's young and single, without a family, mortage, etc. Try raising a family in Toronto for 45k, and see how your point of view changes.

Comparing the pay of PC's in Toronto and reservists on a tour overseas doesn't equate because for one thing you only spend 6 months there, and then you're back to your regular job, and for another thing you aren't taxed when you're over there. Also, even reg force soldiers (with exceptions) spend the majority of their time in Canada on a base working 9-5 or training. Do I think that our troops should have higher salaries, and reservists should make a better daily rate, absolutely. Do I think that it is relevant to how the city of Toronto makes budget reductions, no.
I personally did it for the money and the glory... my disappointment was tempered by the fact that I got a gun and a fast car-VanB

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Z# » Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:07 am

You beat me to it Dusty.

Not to mention that this is a career for police officers. They have to save for retirement as well as all the other things Dusty already mentioned. If you were to make 45K/yr in Toronto, you'd have a hell of a time simply living, never mind everything else.

Police officers are fighting a "war" (excuse the comparison) of sorts at home. You did a great thing by going to Afghanistan for Canada, but you can't be serious when you say that our police officers deserve less because you made that choice.

That 45K you made in Afghanistan was also pure income. No expenses, no tax. After all living expenses considered, at top dollar for a TPS constable (71, 000??) It'd be hard to save 45K in a year.

Again, I respect what you have done. It's just different.
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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Billygoat » Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:44 am

Shit, when I left Toronto after working there for 6 years (and I grew up there) my feeling was that you'd have to double my salary for me to be able to stay. Twice the work, 5 times the danger, and tripple the cost of living than most smaller places.
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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Jeff » Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:47 am

I don't think anyone should be a fully armed PC, part-time. The level of knowledge and responsibility is far to great. Also I agree with the comment about the money issues, police are underpaid. Don't agree? Think of me and many others in uniform on Christmas day while you are with your families opening presents or having dinner. We'll be sitting alone in a police crusier keeping things safe, or at someones home calming down a domestic dispute. We could only wish to be home.

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby HwyBear » Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:40 am

Jeff wrote:I don't think anyone should be a fully armed PC, part-time. The level of knowledge and responsibility is far to great. Also I agree with the comment about the money issues, police are underpaid. Don't agree? Think of me and many others in uniform on Christmas day while you are with your families opening presents or having dinner. We'll be sitting alone in a police crusier keeping things safe, or at someones home calming down a domestic dispute. We could only wish to be home.

:aye:

Plus can add being at home in your nice comfortable bed, while we are out patrolling the streets/hwys and eating at abnormal hours...etc....

so many people do not realize these aspects and quite often those that leave the road for desk jobs forget that as well when making decisions that affect the road.
Few people understand the psychology of dealing with a highway traffic cop. Your normal speeder will panic and immediately pull over to the side. This is wrong. It arouses contempt in the cop-heart. Make the bastard chase you. He will follow"

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Canadian Blue » Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:19 pm

I agree with you 110% Jeff, however I'd also include other professions which are also underpaid despite the important role they play in the society.


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