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General Law Enforcement discussion which does not fit into other channels. Post your thoughts and feelings about anything you want (LE related), or just vent those fumes about whatever is on your chest.
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Billygoat
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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Billygoat » Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:36 pm

The part time & reserve officer idea is a bad one. It will be latched on to by city managers as a way of obtaining free or cheap policing. You'll have inexperienced people who want to 'dabble' in police work as a way of avoiding having to hire full time officers that you'd have to pay a salary and benefits to.

It'll never fly here in Canada.

As has already been mentioned, the threats of cutting services and letting police officers go are heard every several years at budget time. It never happens, it's just bullshit political posturing. They may not hire new officers (as when Toronto had a hiring freeze in the early 90's) but they won't fire anyone.
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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby CourtOfficer » Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:40 pm

Maybe we should pay to train part-time volunteer doctors too. They're getting expensive!

Policing is a profession. Any "volunteer Police" or "reserve Police" or "part-time Police" will be promptly abused. Don't believe me? Ask our brothers in Provincial Corrections here in Ontario. Give an inch and they're bound to take a mile in the name of cost saving.

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby warden602 » Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:55 pm

OPPAux wrote:
bigshotceo wrote:I'm going to throw this out there: how about implementing a system like in the US and the UK, where regular police are supplemented by reserve officers/special constables (in the British sense), who have the same core police training as regular members but who are volunteers?


I'd go for that, but I'm sure the unions...er....associations would be up in arms.

Actually I'd rather see a "part time police" system similar to many US states, where a Reserve Officer system is used. Fully trained, fully armed reserve officers who work part time to supplement the regular officers, full members of the association, full police officer status, just don't work the full shift schedules, and can be called in when staffing levels are low or when there is a need for extra officers.



Yeah, sounds like the Wal-Mart answer to policing!

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Respond Wayne » Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:17 pm

There goes my chances of getting on TPS Fleet any time soon...

Oh well, I should be getting a new Flatbed Tow Truck soon! :D
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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby York » Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:56 am

From $10 to $2-3 million.

toronto.ctv.ca

The Toronto Police Services Board met Thursday to discuss council's request it slash $10 million from its budget, as city hall prepares to release a report detailing $100 million in service cuts.

Police Chief Bill Blair said ahead of the meeting that he is "not currently prepared to reduce the number of police officers currently serving in the City of Toronto."

Instead of job cuts, Blair proposed savings of an estimated $2 to $3 million from reductions in travel expenses and the natural attrition of retiring officers.

Blair said the rising cost of policing inside of courtrooms, an expense downloaded from the province, is costing his force.

Mayor David Miller says the courtroom policing costs have almost tripled from $16 million in 1990 to $43.5 million in 2007.

"This is an area where that will be $47 million in 2008. That is an area that puts huge pressure on the police services budget and I think it's an area that we can no longer afford to provide.

While the savings were nowhere near the requested $10 million in cuts requested by the city, Miller accepted the plan proposed by Blair.

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby bigshotceo » Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:19 am

While I have no doubt that police services should consist mainly of paid members, I do think that volunteer police would have a vital role. For example, look at paid duties. This way, rather than the city paying someone $60/hr to direct traffic, they can have a volunteer.

Billygoat wrote:You'll have inexperienced people who want to 'dabble' in police work
We're not talking about "come in, take a three hour information session, and now you're a cop". We're talking about a long process that ends in ends in full police training; I think that anyone who goes through that is making a committment, not simply dabbling. As well, I disagree about the "inexperienced" part. Say, for example, that each reserve cop does one eight hour shift a week. That's still a significant amount of experience they're building, combined with their full police training.
CourtOfficer wrote:Maybe we should pay to train part-time volunteer doctors too. They're getting expensive!
If we had qualified volunteers who were willing to go to medical school, get their medical degrees, and maintain the same high standards as paid doctors, then that would be fine by me.

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby HwyBear » Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:40 am

Obviously someone has absolutely NO clue what policing entails or what paid duties are!
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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby frostieAUX » Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:19 am

CourtOfficer wrote:Maybe we should pay to train part-time volunteer doctors too. They're getting expensive!

Policing is a profession. Any "volunteer Police" or "reserve Police" or "part-time Police" will be promptly abused. Don't believe me? Ask our brothers in Provincial Corrections here in Ontario. Give an inch and they're bound to take a mile in the name of cost saving.

CO


You got it Brotha!!!

I think its a bad idea. If you want to expand the training for AUX's to use in only major emergencies then fine.

As an AUX if you want me to carry a gun and hold the liability of a police officer...you are going to train and pay me as such.

Leave it to the full time professionals!! find cuts somewhere else TO!!
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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Punisher-One » Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:06 am

The city of toronto is being run into the ground by Miller's socialist regime. Why doesn't he try cuts to his newly hired staff? A roll back of thier significant pay increase? Cut some of his socialist pet projects? There is money to be saved that council is spending on frivolous and un-necessary projects. Start there, not with policing services. Toronto needs all the coppers it can get.

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Bald Man » Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:25 am

What a great career for Doctors. Go through medical school only to get on as a volunteer. You think we have a problem with Doctors going south now. How on earth could a doctor pay off medical school loans if they are working fulltime elsewhere making peanuts compared to what doctors make? How could they learn and gain experience when they don't have the time to fully commit? It would never work and there would be no incentive for anyone to become a doctor in Canada.

I agree, police should be kept the way it is. This is not some hobby for someone to sign up for. This is a professional career made up of highly trained people. How on earth could an officer learn and gain experience if,

they are only volunteers - clearly they will have to have a full time job to support their families and won't be able to commit fully. to policing.

How could an officer gain experience if he/she volunteers a few hours in a month? It can't and won't work.

You need fully dedicated,trained and experienced officers and the only way to accomplish this is to have policing as a fulltime career and not some hobby volunteer job that someone whats to do for fun.

I like a good debate just as much as anyone else, but this has to be the dumbest ideas I have ever heard on this forum, and there have been some really dumb comments.

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby frostieAUX » Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:45 am

Bald Man wrote:What a great career for Doctors. Go through medical school only to get on as a volunteer. You think we have a problem with Doctors going south now. How on earth could a doctor pay off medical school loans if they are working fulltime elsewhere making peanuts compared to what doctors make? How could they learn and gain experience when they don't have the time to fully commit? It would never work and there would be no incentive for anyone to become a doctor in Canada.

I agree, police should be kept the way it is. This is not some hobby for someone to sign up for. This is a professional career made up of highly trained people. How on earth could an officer learn and gain experience if,

they are only volunteers - clearly they will have to have a full time job to support their families and won't be able to commit fully. to policing.

How could an officer gain experience if he/she volunteers a few hours in a month? It can't and won't work.

You need fully dedicated,trained and experienced officers and the only way to accomplish this is to have policing as a fulltime career and not some hobby volunteer job that someone whats to do for fun.

I like a good debate just as much as anyone else, but this has to be the dumbest ideas I have ever heard on this forum, and there have been some really dumb comments.




I think it is crazy because some states have these programs already!!!

don't know about anywhere in canada
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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Bald Man » Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:49 am

Vince wrote:The city of toronto is being run into the ground by Miller's socialist regime. Why doesn't he try cuts to his newly hired staff? A roll back of thier significant pay increase? Cut some of his socialist pet projects? There is money to be saved that council is spending on frivolous and un-necessary projects. Start there, not with policing services. Toronto needs all the coppers it can get.


We experienced the same thing during the early nineties with the Bob Rae NDP government. You would think that left leaning Toronto would remember this when they voted for this jack ass. A left wing government is very waistfull and redirects tax dollars into useless social programs to make the granola crunchers happy. These are the types of people that would rather see tax dollars spent on crack pipe/needle programs and waist more money on trying rehabilitate crack heads, which is like asking a human not to breath.

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Bald Man » Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:05 am

I wanted to add, clearly Bigshotceo has no clue what he is talking about. If police services were ever to do this, patrol would probably be made up of mostly volunteers/part-timers. This is very scary since patrol is the backbone to all police services. I'm not a police officer, but working as a special cst in a police environment I do see a lot of what new officers go through when they start out. OPC aside, most of what they learn is hands on from an "experienced officer". A lot of officers don't know what they are doing after 2 years of fulltime work let along putting in a couple of hours in when they have time. A police force could not sustain it self if it were comprised of inexperienced hobby seekers. It takes knowledgeable,competent and experienced officers to trained and mentor new officers in order for a police force to work. And the only way to gain experience is by commiting to a fulltime career. Could you imagine if we had reserve officers training new officers coming on? This would be a huge disater which would see many officers lose their jobs over poor judgment and mistakes. This could also put officers at unnecessary risks as well.

As for paid duties, sure there are some that are paid by the city but most are paid by the private sector which has no impact on staffing or salaries.

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby bigshotceo » Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:23 am

I have no doubt that the "best" solution would be to have a police force fully made up of full-time members. Unfortunately, we need to accept the reality that there isn't always enough money for the best solution. Look at the medical field, for example. When you call an ambulance, you don't get a doctor arriving at your house, you get a paramedic. Sure, it would probably be better if we had a doctor arrive, and I'm sure that along the way someone got hurt because of it. When you go to a hospital, the first person you talk to it probably going to be a nurse, who would assess you. Again, it would be better if it were a doctor doing it, but it's not always financially available.

I know it's a bad idea how try and balance cost and safety/effectiveness but it's a fact of life anywhere you go.

And if it's such a "bad" or "stupid" idea, as some have suggested, why is it being implemented with relative success in two leading nations (the US and the UK)?

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Re: T.O. Big Service Cuts Coming - Police officers included

Postby Z# » Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:57 am

bigshotceo wrote:I have no doubt that the "best" solution would be to have a police force fully made up of full-time members. Unfortunately, we need to accept the reality that there isn't always enough money for the best solution. Look at the medical field, for example. When you call an ambulance, you don't get a doctor arriving at your house, you get a paramedic. Sure, it would probably be better if we had a doctor arrive, and I'm sure that along the way someone got hurt because of it. When you go to a hospital, the first person you talk to it probably going to be a nurse, who would assess you. Again, it would be better if it were a doctor doing it, but it's not always financially available.

I know it's a bad idea how try and balance cost and safety/effectiveness but it's a fact of life anywhere you go.

And if it's such a "bad" or "stupid" idea, as some have suggested, why is it being implemented with relative success in two leading nations (the US and the UK)?


I know we're not here to debate the relative training level of our modern day paramedics, but... Municipal and most rural services today in age are fully capable of delivering the same kind of quality front-line medical care to their users as they would get rolling into a hospital. Advanced Life Support in the prehospital field is equal to, and in some cases better than the level of care delivered in hospital. Saying a doctor should show up in an ambulance is like saying a lawyer should show up in a cruiser. Anyway, I digress. I know that wasn't the point you were trying to make, bsceo.

Having casual / part time / or even volunteer police would be detrimental to the overall quality of service. Period. There's evidence of that in other fields all over North America. I can dig up examples if I have to. High turnover, inexperienced employees, dangerous environments, and the list goes on. I know how it works in the US, or the UK. The bottom line is, you don't take your front like LEO's and bust 'em down to part time employees and volunteers. It will never happen anyway, but the mere thought of it is mind boggling.
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